Should point buy be discouraged?

[Ahnehnois]

There are three things I dislike about rolling ability scores. One is that my basic imperative in character creation is control. The rules should let me make the character I want, within reason. Often, dice will give you a distribution that doesn't work with what you wanted to achieve. I think that if you go into character creation knowing what you want, the dice can only screw it up.

The second is that the PCs and NPCs should follow the same rules, and rolling stats for NPCs is a pain for the DM.

The third is that while I'm not obsessed with balance, I care enough about it that I don't like the crazy variation between results.

I use a simple mod total (your scores add up to modifier total 8, three odds, for example). I advocate some form of point buy as the default.

That said, for games where balance is not important, or in situations where you need help with the creative aspect, rolling is good. It's certainly part of the D&D heritage, and should be presented as an option I think.

 

[Alzrius]

Blame the rules because it becomes something that requires oversight, rather than something that can be done by players prior to the session. So... yes.

I'm not sure I follow you here. Both methods of generating ability points can be done by players prior to the session, and both require oversight if you don't trust your players. I've double-checked people's point-buy values on their stats and found mistakes (at least, I presume they were mistakes and not attempts to slip something by me).

The second is that the PCs and NPCs should follow the same rules, and rolling stats for NPCs is a pain for the DM.

You think that's bad? Try tracking XP gain for NPCs!

 

[avin]

is he right?

No.

As I said in other thread, in my experience, rolled ability scores lead to jealousy and break games apart.

Different methods should be presented in the book.

 

[Ahnehnois]

You think that's bad? Try tracking XP gain for NPCs!

I stopped using XP, but I do remember it being a general nuisance.

 

[Umbran]

The thing I like about roling stats is that it gives me inspiration that I might not come up with on my own.

True story: Way, way back, playing with character generation rules from the original Unearthed Arcana. You may remember, they had an alternative stat generation system for humans. You picked the class you wanted to play, and it gave you some number of d6 you'd roll for each stat. In general, in the class' primary stat,you were probably rolling 9d6, taking the top 3. Getting an 18 in your top stat was normal.

I generated a wizard - 9d6 for Int, 3d6 for Str. Of course, I rolled a 17, and an 18, respectively.

I would never in a million years have chosen that in a point-buy. I had to create a character concept that fit those stats - a wizard who had even odds of arm-wrestling the party barbarian to a standstill. At the time, the concept was like having Rastlin able to bench-press Caramon. Unheard of! At first level, with a quarterstaff, the man was deadly! Unheard of!

That same party barbarian was mighty confused - he was the UA type, that hated and wanted to destroy magic. But he also revered strength. Gave him quite a quandry for his little barbarian mind what to do with me.

That's the thing with point-buy. Yes, it allows you to build what you want, but it'll never give you that which you didn't think of at first. Sometimes, there's inspiration to be found in being forced to accept things.

 

[Deadboy]

I'm not sure I follow you here. Both methods of generating ability points can be done by players prior to the session, and both require oversight if you don't trust your players. I've double-checked people's point-buy values on their stats and found mistakes (at least, I presume they were mistakes and not attempts to slip something by me).

I admit I'm spoiled by using character builders, so someone getting their point buy wrong isn't a problem I've seen.

 

[Light Knight]

Suggestion for the non timid!

In my experiences, rolling stats always seem to generate uber stats, since most games I've seen, the dm doesnt officiate the rolling, its an honor system thing (cough).

That being said...if you dont like the stats you roll, why not just roll one more time?

That being said, open excel.....create 6 cells that holds the dice rolls. Have them prelabelled with the stat names.

Have a command button that rolls the #s.

Now, put next to each stat your bare minimum requirement. Take the command button and put it in a loop, and checks those requirements...if met..stop..if not..go again....

If you want 16 and above on all stats....it might take a few thousand rolls, but you'll get them! And you legally rolled the dice (or had the computer roll them...)


(Dont take me seriously please, I'd rather not be flamed..too much)

 

[Gronin]

I like point buy because I don't want to have to oversee my players generating ability scores and the resulting character generation session. Some gamers find that fun to start the campaign that way, but to me, it's always a waste of good session time. I want to start a new campaign with the adventure.

I don't want to have to oversee my players either - so I don't. I know it is one of those things that most DMs seem to want to do but I have never understood. I trust them to follow the guidelines we have set out for character generation without me hovering over them. If I can't trust them they wouldn't be getting invited into my house. It is kind of the same way with my business. I give keys to the shop to all of my staff -- if I can't trust them they shouldn't be working for me.

Sorry i know this took things a bit off topic and hopefully this won't be seen as a shot at Kitsune9 because that was not my intent -- it may not be a trust issue but rather a desire to have some control over a very important aspect of the game. Anyway I am a bit curious about this so if someone can fill me in on why DM supervision of character generation is a generally accepted necessity I would be grateful.

Now that being said I am also a fan of the point buy system as it seems to create a more balanced set of characters from the outset.

 

[foolish_mortals]

the only quick way to get over having to watch the players role their ability scores is to have the dm roll up all the numbers and hand them out to the players to assign to their abilities. That's the honest super quick method. Or the excel sheet thing the guy a couple posts up mentioned.

foolish_mortals

 

[Elf Witch]

I abhor rolling for stats, it takes unnecessary time and requires the DM to oversee the process (I play with at least one player I know for a fact will cheat if not supervised). I also dislike being a character with average or low stats when a lucky rolling friend is running around with no score lower than a 15. Point buys also make it much easier for game designers to balance the system.

That said, whether rolled stats are right or aren't right is entirely down to personal taste; it doesn't hurt the game to include both methods and should not encourage one or the other as its obvious there are players who vastly prefer one method to the other and both methods each have its own set of advantages and disadvantages. The designers just need to make sure players know what they're getting into before they pick.

When I DM I give people a choice they can roll or do a point buy.

And I let them roll at home I don't need to see the rolls. I don't really care if they cheat if they feel they need those stats to have fun then I am not going to worry over it. In all the years I have been doing it this way I have never seen someone bring in a super high rolled character.

Maybe I am lucky that my players don't feel the need to cheat or they do cheat but do it in a way that does not break he game.

I think there should be no default way to create characters . Different methods should be presented with the pros and cons of each and let each group choose for themselves.