Should point buy be discouraged?

[Elf Witch]

After reading all of this i dont get why point-buy is the bad guy in this arguement, you got a lucky roll and made a super cool character. you could accomplish the same with just adding more points to your point buy.

If you argument is that rolling is better because you get lucky characters then the inverse is also true that rolling can suck because you can get a real sucky character.

I didn't say point buy is bad I am saying the recommend point buys in the DMG with 32 being the highest would have made it next to impossible to build this character.

Just because I prefer rolling does not mean I think point buy is bad and should not be in the game.

 

[kitsune9]

I don't want to have to oversee my players either - so I don't. I know it is one of those things that most DMs seem to want to do but I have never understood. I trust them to follow the guidelines we have set out for character generation without me hovering over them. If I can't trust them they wouldn't be getting invited into my house. It is kind of the same way with my business. I give keys to the shop to all of my staff -- if I can't trust them they shouldn't be working for me.

Sorry i know this took things a bit off topic and hopefully this won't be seen as a shot at Kitsune9 because that was not my intent -- it may not be a trust issue but rather a desire to have some control over a very important aspect of the game. Anyway I am a bit curious about this so if someone can fill me in on why DM supervision of character generation is a generally accepted necessity I would be grateful.

Now that being said I am also a fan of the point buy system as it seems to create a more balanced set of characters from the outset.

For me, I think it could be a trust issue, but it's also a habit from my RPGA days ever since 2e.

I trust my players with the shopping stuff. I don't even want to bother with what they buy.

 

[darkwing]

Since we're going to keep attributes, they should be a function of class and race. You shouldn't be buying or rolling anything. Rolling leads to too random results and buying leads to extra work trying to figure out future value.

Attributes chosen at character creation are a big problem. Especially for new players or players who don't understand the implications of attribute choice because they care more about the feel of their character and wind up unintentionally gimping themselves... which makes the game less fun for them as well as their group. To make optimized (or even good enough) attribute choices requires a lot of work that shouldn't be necessary when rolling a level 1 character.

Instead, every class/race combo should be assigned a starting attribute set that "just works".

 

[Light Knight]

Since we're going to keep attributes, they should be a function of class and race. You shouldn't be buying or rolling anything. Rolling leads to too random results and buying leads to extra work trying to figure out future value.

Attributes chosen at character creation are a big problem. Especially for new players or players who don't understand the implications of attribute choice because they care more about the feel of their character and wind up unintentionally gimping themselves... which makes the game less fun for them as well as their group. To make optimized (or even good enough) attribute choices requires a lot of work that shouldn't be necessary when rolling a level 1 character.

Instead, every class/race combo should be assigned a starting attribute set that "just works".

This tends to make people carbon copies.

 

[darkwing]

But a difference between a 12 and a 20 in your prime stat in either 3.5e or 4e is +4 to hit and damage(only for non-casters in 3.5e). And a 20% difference in your chance to hit is a big deal.

This isn't necessarily a 20% difference.

Take the following example for a typical enemy the character would be expected to fight:
A) 12 (+1) hits on 12-20
B) 20 (+5) hits on 8-20.
(sounds reasonable right?)

Now the calculated chance to hit is:
A) 9/20 = .45
B) 13/20 = .65

How much better is B compared to A?

.65 - .45      .2
--------- = -------- = .44444 (or approximately 44.4% better)
   .45        .45

Now the values will change depending on how hard the enemy is to hit but the numbers I picked are for a "reasonable" case and show that the differences are greater than they appear at first sight.

 

[darkwing]

This tends to make people carbon copies.

Explain yourself? Sure every dwarven fighter will start with the same attributes but so what? This just makes the math easier. Does that mean they will all chose the same weapon or fighting style? Of course not. A 2H great axe fighter who concentrates on damage will feel different than a 1H sword + Shield warrior who's main goal is to protect his allies. Wizards will specialize in different schools. Attributes don't have anything to do with this.

 

[Light Knight]

Explain yourself? Sure every dwarven fighter will start with the same attributes but so what? This just makes the math easier. Does that mean they will all chose the same weapon or fighting style? Of course not. A 2H great axe fighter who concentrates on damage will feel different than a 1H sword + Shield warrior who's main goal is to protect his allies. Wizards will specialize in different schools. Attributes don't have anything to do with this.

Attributes makes a HUGE difference.

take high strength with a 2h weapon
vs
high dex, weapon finesse, two short swords.

as for the carbon copy. thats exactly what they would be with the same stats..

Whats the point of having stats at all if you arent going to have variable stats?

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Blame the rules because it becomes something that requires oversight, rather than something that can be done by players prior to the session. It solved a problem I've had at my table in a way that left everyone satisfied. So... yes.

I guess my group must be special. We roll our characters up without supervision since we're all adults. We cross the street without someone to hold our hand as well.

Mod Note: Irony. The guy making a point about maturity doing so by being needlessly insulting. This sort of thing gets you booted from a thread, people. Don't do it. ~Umbran

 

[Light Knight]

I guess my group must be special. We roll our characters up without supervision since we're all adults. We cross the street without someone to hold our hand as well.

I say why roll....You are playing a game...Do I want play a fighter with a 7 strenght? or an 19 strength?

My preference as a DM is to let the players play exactly what they want to, to have fun. In most cases i will work around the details to handle overkill by the players.

The only thing that presents a problem is when one character is way too much compared to the rest..so to make it challenging for that player, it becomes to hard for the rest..

 

[TwinBahamut]

Whats the point of having stats at all if you arent going to have variable stats?

I don't know... Is there much purpose in using stats to differentiate characters of the same class? They still work just fine to differentiate characters of different classes, and characters of the same class are differentiated via other methods (like meaningful Feat, Talent, Skill, or Power choices).

To be honest, I find stat differentiation to be utterly boring. When I create stats for a character I do so simply to make the math work, and then I promptly ignore them entirely in favor of focusing on things that matter a lot more to me. I don't think I've ever used them as a roleplaying tool and I've never valued them anywhere near as much as other things (like good skills or unique class features). They're part of D&D's system, but they're rather inherently boring because of their abstractness. There is only so much you can get out of a vaguely defined number.

Anyways, it is certainly true that, in any system where characters are required to have certain stats built up, a Point Buy system tends to favor characters raising those stats at the expense of others, creating certain similarity based on that need. I still vastly prefer that to random chance, where you don't even know if you are going to get what you need, and characters tend to come out as either uselessly weak, overly strong, or equally average at everything. I prefer the reliability of Point Buy at creating characters who have well defined and logical strengths and weaknesses.