Should point buy be discouraged?

[Hassassin]

Here's what I'd like to see in 5e.

As default an array. Probably 16/14/13/12/10/8, assignable freely. This is even easier than rolling for new players.

As alternatives (in the DMG, preferably):

4d6-lowest, assign as you wish. (Rules for rerolling too weak scores, optionally also too strong ones.)

Point buy that results in *lower* numbers than either of the above - probably 20 to 24 point buy by 3e rules. (Guidelines on other amounts and their effect on the campaign.)

Some more interesting methods, especially in order ones, that result in characters on average as strong as the default array. (Variations for stronger or weaker characters.)

 

[delericho]

Here's what I'd like to see in 5e.

As default an array. Probably 16/14/13/12/10/8, assignable freely. This is even easier than rolling for new players.

As alternatives (in the DMG, preferably):

4d6-lowest, assign as you wish. (Rules for rerolling too weak scores, optionally also too strong ones.)

Point buy that results in *lower* numbers than either of the above - probably 20 to 24 point buy by 3e rules. (Guidelines on other amounts and their effect on the campaign.)

Some more interesting methods, especially in order ones, that result in characters on average as strong as the default array. (Variations for stronger or weaker characters.)

Yep, I would support that. I'd stick with 25-point buy, though - it's just an easy number to remember! (and 4d6-drop-lowest is about equivalent to 28-points, so that works...)

 

[Hassassin]

Yep, I would support that. I'd stick with 25-point buy, though - it's just an easy number to remember! (and 4d6-drop-lowest is about equivalent to 28-points, so that works...)

Point buy often lets you make a stronger character than the array would, but it's not a huge problem. The array is 27 point, so 25 would let you customize, but there'd still be a trade-off. So, yeah, 25 would work, as long as there are no strictly SAD classes.

 

[Dausuul]

I have seen the players who rolled accept a 3 as a stat and play with it. I have never seen someone who used point buy have anything lower then an 8 in a stat and they do that so they can get an 18.

Probably because in point buy, 8 is the minimum. I have no problem playing characters with super-low stats, it's often a great roleplaying hook. But they aren't an option in point buy, which I find a touch vexing.

One variant I've tried and rather liked is the "add-subtract" method. You start with a 12 in each stat, then roll 1d6. Add the result to one stat and subtract it from another. Repeat three more times and those are your stats. You can never raise a stat above 18 or lower it below 3. The end result is a character whose stats are in the ballpark of what you want, and are guaranteed to add up to 72, but you may end up with some surprises. (If an average stat of 12 is too low for your taste, you can give everybody some "freebie points" to add on at the end.)

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Whats the point of having stats at all if you arent going to have variable stats?

The problem is a catch-22. If you make stats extremely important, then rolling is really bad for characters. It means that rolling poorly makes you worse than all your party members for the whole game.

If you make stats not important, than everyone says "Why bother having stats?"

I think we need a middle ground where stats are functionally not important but still have an effect. Something like:

Strength
1-5: -2 damage with melee attacks and strength based skills
6-10: -1 damage with melee attacks and strength based skills
11-15: +0 damage with melee attacks and strength based skills
16-20: +1 damage with melee attacks and strength based skills

But then have it determine your carrying capacity as well as much much you can lift or throw so that it still has an effect.

Do the same thing with all the stats and make sure that your attack rolls are not based on your stats in any way and very few people will complain about rolling for stats.

 

[darkwing]

Attributes makes a HUGE difference.

take high strength with a 2h weapon
vs
high dex, weapon finesse, two short swords.

as for the carbon copy. thats exactly what they would be with the same stats..

Whats the point of having stats at all if you arent going to have variable stats?

This is the crux of the issue. You don't need stats at all. The finesse vs. high strength characters should be roughly equivalent in terms of damage even though their styles are completely different.

 

[Wormwood]

You don't need stats at all. The finesse vs. high strength characters should be roughly equivalent in terms of damage even though their styles are completely different.

This.

 

[Hassassin]

This is the crux of the issue. You don't need stats at all. The finesse vs. high strength characters should be roughly equivalent in terms of damage even though their styles are completely different.

In damage/round or damage/hit or something else? I wouldn't want these to be just aesthetic choices.

 

[nightwalker450]

I don't know if it's been said... but you can have rolled stats using point buy. Result equal footing character, randomly generated stats.

22 point buy... Roll 22d6, separate the dice by the number on the dice. Number of dice is the number of points you have towards a stat. There 6 stats with randomly allocated points. To go further old school - numbers go top to bottom, 1's are strength, 2's are con, etc...

Any points that don't distribute evenly, are either deleted (if you really wanted the chance to roll a weak character), or spent as normal to even out your character or help push it in a direction you want to go. Or for more random, roll the remaining points and distribute, continue until there are no more points.

 

[Elf Witch]

Here's what I'd like to see in 5e.

As default an array. Probably 16/14/13/12/10/8, assignable freely. This is even easier than rolling for new players.

As alternatives (in the DMG, preferably):

4d6-lowest, assign as you wish. (Rules for rerolling too weak scores, optionally also too strong ones.)

Point buy that results in *lower* numbers than either of the above - probably 20 to 24 point buy by 3e rules. (Guidelines on other amounts and their effect on the campaign.)

Some more interesting methods, especially in order ones, that result in characters on average as strong as the default array. (Variations for stronger or weaker characters.)

Again I bring up why do we need a default? I really feel that defaults imply this is the best way to do something. The recommend way.

Your array with the 8 would not appeal to people who don't enjoy having a - in a stat.

And lets be honest what it means is that unless you are playing as character that needs charisma that is the stat that the 8 is going to get dumped in. And a lot of players will just choose to ignore it and let there natural charisma deal with rendering that stat meaningless.

And if they do choose to role play it you have a party filled with below average looks, manners and ability to function well in polite society.