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D&D 4E 4E combat and powers: How to keep the baby and not the bathwater?

In an action movie, or story, you don't see the characters performing the same trick over and over again throughout the story. They do different things all the time. Even though you might be able to do a super Jean Claude Van Damme high kick, he doesn't do it in every fight against every opponent. That would be boring.
So you are claiming that there is a rule in action move script writing that no move ever work more than once per encounter?
I'd greatly beg to differ.

It would certainly be beyond reasonable to start stacking modifiers on saves against "tricks" if the other guy just saw you do it 10 seconds ago. But that works in any system. On the other hand JCVD *CAN* high kick 2, 3, or 7 times in a fight IF the circumstances are right and he chooses to. There are plenty of Jackie Chan movies in which he does the same stunt to a string of guys. That is just as much a cliche.

When you say that overall it doesn't happen more than once often, you are perfectly fine rolling along.
When you say it NEVER happens you start to shake on the tracks pretty badly.
When the rules declare THOU SHALT NOT do this but once per encounter, you fly off the rails and explode against the mountain.
 

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my idea for combat (and for the whole system):
take all the characteristics;
divide all the archetypes by them (str for fighter/dex for rogue... etc.)
make pools of powers for every archetype (str pool/dex pool... etc.)
give every character class a primary combat characteristic (you got it already)
all the others will be secondary;
primary gives ability to study and learn powers and use the similar powers/improvised powers with some disadvantages, e.g. "-2 on attack roll". do whatever you want to do with your sword or sorcery.
secondary gives you ability to study and use magic items or simple items, containing some basic powers from other sources (mage can do basic melee attack as a looser, so let the fighter in a world of fantasy and magic read from scroll some magic missile at -4 on attack roll e.g. or let the rogue pray for a god for some healing using some small ritual figurine instead of abstract "healing surge"
oh, whatever... I'll do it myself anyway:))
 

Then don't have it.

You don't have to have the conversation. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. Western civilization will not fall if you just leave it be.

/snip]

Fair enough. But, then, why should I let it go? When you can actually quote the books, and prove that someone is wrong, I should back off and just ignore it? When you see people spouting off stuff from years ago that wasn't true then, but got repeated so many times that now it's taken as gospel, we should just step back and shrug? It's just "opinion" so, it doesn't matter?

To some degree, sure, but, at the end of the day, I'd think it's far, FAR better for the hobby for people to criticise something they actually know something about than not. I make a point of avoiding talking about 1e mechanics any more because I'm very tired of having my ass handed to me by people who know the game better.

So, I rarely make any 1e mechanics comments anymore.

But, the reverse never seems to wash. "Fighters are now Wizards! 4e makes everyone a wizard! Every character is the same!!!!" is the meme that gets repeated over and over and over again.

Should we just ignore the meme and hope it goes away on its own? It hasn't in 4 years, so, why would it now?
 

So you are claiming that there is a rule in action move script writing that no move ever work more than once per encounter?
I'd greatly beg to differ.
/snip.

Why?

Take JCVD. His signature thing is that triple take spinning high kick. Show me a single example from any of his movies where he does it more than once per fight.

Go back and watch Jackie Chan movies. Look at how often he actually repeats any stunt in the same fight. Over the course of several fights? Oh heck yes. He does that all the time - tie the bag guy up with his clothes and beat the snot out of him. Seen it a million times. But, never in the same fight.

Look at any action sequence in a decent action movie. What you won't see is the same thing being done over and over again in the same fight sequence.

I mean, here's the fight scene from Drunken Master:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjl74IMdHo8]Top 100 Fight Scenes of All Time - #05-Drunken Master II - Jackie Chan vs Ken Lo and Gang part 2 - YouTube[/ame]

THAT'S what I want my D&D fights to look like.
 

[sarcasm]Yes, because that's the only alternative to playing 4e style.[/sarcasm]


I will admit that 4e does have a certain feel to it - I found it very Kung Fu Panda. Probably because I went out to the drive in movies to watch that with my kids the day I got the 4e Players Handbook. 4e is readily suited for that sort of action flick, the ones in which the protagonists show off with a series of signature moves--one time each--before the fight is over.
Or pro-wrestling. It's suited for that too.

I don't find it well-suited to general D&D-style fantasy.

Heh, in the interests of making Umbran happy, I'm going to present my case and let you pick it apart.

Why I find 3e combat too static

1. Movement is penalized. This is perhaps the biggest one, but, moving, particularly at higher levels, is almost always a poor choice. You lose your iterative attacks if you move. It is very rare that moving more than a 5 foot step is worth losing half or two thirds of your potential damage.

2. Monsters are doubly penalized by movement. Monsters don't have iterative attacks, but, even low level monsters as early as CR1 have multiple attacks. The standard claw/claw/bite routine for most monsters. And, because of the way monsters are made, their extra attacks are not as penalized as a PC's iterative attacks, meaning that their multiple attacks are more likely to hit. It's a fairly rare monster that gets one big whammy (although not unheard of). Most get multiple little whammys that add up in a hurry. But, if the creature moves, it drops its damage output massively - going from 3 chances to hit down to 1.

3. There are rarely any advantages to moving. Beyond shifting to flank, why would a character move? He's already engaged the enemy, so, presumably, it's better to kill this one first than try to move on to something else. And, "protect the caster" doesn't really work. There's nothing the fighter can do to stop the baddy from just walking around him, if the DM wants to munch down on caster stew.

4. Most 3e encounters feature very small numbers of opponents. I base this on multiple modules including nearly a hundred Dungeon adventures. The overwhelming majority (about 80 % IIRC) of encounters feature 1-3 opponents. Moving around doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you only have one opponent - where are you moving to?

5. It is almost always better to gang up on a single target than damage multiple targets. There are exceptions to this, but, focus fire is almost always the best tactic to use. Half killing two ogres is far less effective than killing one and leaving one fresh. So, again, why move? You get into contact with one baddy and you stick with him until he's no longer breathing. Shifting targets by moving is most often a poor tactical choice.

So, there it is. There are my 5 reasons why I think 3e combat tends to be static. Can you get around these issues? Quite possibly. If you use a lot of humanoids (no worries about losing multiple attacks until fairly high level), and large numbers of them at a time, you can likely get a more mobile encounter. Not my personal preferred solution since I like monsters too much. :D But, it should go a long way.
 

Look at any action sequence in a decent action movie. What you won't see is the same thing being done over and over again in the same fight sequence.
You are moving the goal posts.
As I said before:
"When you say that overall it doesn't happen more than once often, you are perfectly fine rolling along."

But you are then leaping from that to trying to justify rules saying Thou Shalt Not do these thing more than once per encounter.

The idea that JCVD or Chan is thinking inside his head that he CAN'T repeat a trick if the situation were to present itself is preposterous.
To find the idea that a game rule wouldn't just propose that but to MANDATE it as a big negative for that game system is more than reasonable.

THAT'S what I want my D&D fights to look like.
Me too.
And my PF game do look like that.

And I also don't have rules telling me I MAY NOT repeat a trick if the circumstances make me want to.

I've got everything you have. And I've got more.
 

BryonD said:
The idea that JCVD or Chan is thinking inside his head that he CAN'T repeat a trick if the situation were to present itself is preposterous.

What's more ridiculous? That the choreographers of a fight scene in a movie don't want to make a crappy fight scene where the hero endlessly spams the same maneuver, or that I somehow have magically gained the ability to read minds and know what's inside someone's head.

All I care about is the results. Do you see the same maneuver more than once in a fight scene? No. Thus, the mechanics nicely model what we see on the screen or in a story.

See, to me, process is pointless. The only thing that matters is the results. You want the same results that I do - no endlessly spamming the same maneuver. Seeing the same thing occur in the same fight should either never happen or be very rare. Since that's the goal you want, why not build that into the mechanics?

After all, there are numerous powers that grant similar results for the same character. Sure, I might not be able to trip the bad guy in exactly the same way every time, but, I can trip him four different ways if I want to. And hey, that makes the fight look a lot like what I see in genre fiction.

Win win as far as I'm concerned. Who cares what's inside a fictional character's mind? I can just as easily say, "Gee, I pulled off that super dooper flying spinning kick at just the right time... nope, not right now... nope not right now... hey, I'll smash him in the face with my elbow this time! Wahoo!"

I mean, heck, I've done enough Tae Kwon Doe sparring to know that if you keep trying the same thing over and over again, you get your ass handed to you over and over again. Even in sparring, you don't generally try the high risk stuff too often for the simple reason that it's high risk. So, you don't see the flying spin kick very often because it's a high gamble. There, a nice perfectly reasonable in character justification for why you only see an encounter power once per encounter.

But, in any case, like I said, who cares? It's the end result that matters. It's great that you get that result in Pathfinder. Good for you. I never could in 3e. My 3e combats were exactly as I described them - get into melee range, trade blows until the bad guy falls down, possibly shift a bit from time to time, move on to the next target.

In 4e, every one of my characters, and I've now played everything but a controller, takes a full move almost every round. Standing toe to toe and trading blows is the exception, and certainly not the rule.
 

In my RPG under construction, I use At-will/Daily/Encounter coupled with a stamina system. That is, using a manevuer, getting wounded and several other things dip into your stamina, and once your stamina reaches 0, you cannot fight nor move until you rest 10 mins.

I've been working on various houserules, partly to get rid of the AEDU system for the past six months. Here is what I've come up with (it concerns every power source):


  • PC starts with an amount of power points equal to 1+the sum of their modifiers.

  • at the end of a short rest, PC regain an amount of power point equal to 1+their highest modifiers, with a malus equal to the amount of daily powers they've been using during the encounter. That malus resets at every extented rest.

  • powers are categorized by levels:
    • power level 1 (heroic tier) : Encounter 1, Daily 1, Utility 2
    • power level 2 (heroic tier) : Encounter 3, Daily 5, Utility 6
    • power level 3 (heroic tier) : Encounter 7, Daily 9, Utility 10
    • power level 4 (parangon tier) : Encounter 13, Daily 15
    • power level 5 (parangon tier) : Utility 16, Encounter 17
    • power level 6 (parangon tier) : Daily 19
    • power level 7 (epic tier) : Utility 22, Encounter 23
    • power level 8 (epic tier) : Daily 25, Encounter 27
    • power level 9 (epic tier) : Daily 29

  • when a power is gained, PC can choose any encounter, daily or utility power of a certain level (depending on the character level ; ie at "pc level" 1, 2, and 3, PC can pick "power level" 1 powers. At "pc level" 4,5, and 6, they can pick "power level" 2 powers, etc.)

  • power cost:
    • heroic and parangon encounter power : 1 power point
    • epic encounter power : 2 power points
    • heroic and parangon daily power : 1 pp, and a malus of 1
    • epic daily power : 2 pp, and a malus of 2
Not only, PC can use their powers as long as they got the stamina to do it, but they got more choice regarding what they can do with that stamina. It perfectly possible to choose fewer Encounter Attack power than vanilla 4E, and focus more on Utility powers. Or you can design a wizard focusing on Daily powers.


PC are a little more powerful, but coupled with others houserules (halved hp for monsters and opposed rolls), it isn't glaring. What's more, it keeps the game balanced, as it affects every class.

Love this. What's a malus?

I'm going to tweak it and use it for my RPG.... It'd help me vary the stamina costs of my manevuers...

EDIT: If I manage to vary the stamina costs, I might get rid of daily/at-will/encounter...
 

I'm beginning to think the main flaw of the AEDU system of 4E is that there is no official reasoning for each class using it.

It is not written that a character can't do a manevuer more than once an encounter/5 minutes/day/8 hours as in a fatigue or mana system. Nor is is written as the character won't do it more than once an encounter/day. Nor is it written as pure cinematic... They just don't happen more than once an encounter/day.

Everything is left up to the narrative of the players and DMs. That was a bad choice for a major departure of tradition.
 

Why I find 3e combat too static

1. Movement is penalized. This is perhaps the biggest one, but, moving, particularly at higher levels, is almost always a poor choice. You lose your iterative attacks if you move. It is very rare that moving more than a 5 foot step is worth losing half or two thirds of your potential damage.
This happens some times. But I'd say that claiming this fits my experience as a rule would be hugely mistaken.

The massive flaw in this claim is that it presumes all targets are equal in merit so attacking the guy right in front of you is equally valid as attacking the guy over there. Even from a purely gamist pov that is frequently far from true. The guy over there may be a much more important threat and need to be dealt with *right now*.

But if you put story in the game then the need for movement becomes the far more common situation. The need to go after a specific target, protect something, acquire something, interrupt something, etc... makes motion a nearly constant obligation.

You and I have recently had some "AHA!" moments regarding the radical differences in what we want from our game experience. I think this comes back down to that. If I were to play 3E with a mindset that combat happened in a vacuum and the goal was simply to kill everything in the way and then high five all around, then this would probably be a much bigger issue in my games.


2. Monsters are doubly penalized by movement. Monsters don't have iterative attacks, but, even low level monsters as early as CR1 have multiple attacks. The standard claw/claw/bite routine for most monsters. And, because of the way monsters are made, their extra attacks are not as penalized as a PC's iterative attacks, meaning that their multiple attacks are more likely to hit. It's a fairly rare monster that gets one big whammy (although not unheard of). Most get multiple little whammys that add up in a hurry. But, if the creature moves, it drops its damage output massively - going from 3 chances to hit down to 1.
This is actually just point #1 repeated and the same responses apply.

3. There are rarely any advantages to moving. Beyond shifting to flank, why would a character move? He's already engaged the enemy, so, presumably, it's better to kill this one first than try to move on to something else. And, "protect the caster" doesn't really work. There's nothing the fighter can do to stop the baddy from just walking around him, if the DM wants to munch down on caster stew.
I think this is already been addressed. But it is amusing to note that in claiming how ineffective moving is your example requires accepting how easy and valuable the "baddy" finds moving.

4. Most 3e encounters feature very small numbers of opponents. I base this on multiple modules including nearly a hundred Dungeon adventures. The overwhelming majority (about 80 % IIRC) of encounters feature 1-3 opponents. Moving around doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you only have one opponent - where are you moving to?
There is a lot wrong with this example.
First, set pieces against a single foe are classic iconic elements of the game. So that will skew the numbers for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with mechanics. I can't speak for 4E adventures, but I'd certainly HOPE they kept that classic element as a common theme.

But also, even if you were completely right, the choices that WotC and/or Paizo make in adventure design do not limit the capacity of the system.

And even then the presumption that you just stand there and smash the monster is going to be true some of the time, but calling it a truth goes back to smacking of the pure gamism "kill the monster, high 5" that may work for you but has no representative value for me.

Also, while 1 foe should get a pass for story reasons, as soon as you got to 2 your point about not moving starts to drop off fast. Even including three as a reason not to move requires a charitable view.

But, you are not right anyway.

I went and randomly grabbed three sequential Dungeon issues from my of 3E days stack. I hit on 148-150.

Total encounters = 92 (I counted random encounter tables as 1 encounter with the avg # of foes).
Number of single foe fights 34.
Avg # of foes 3.8
Maximum # 26. (an outlier no doubt, several were 10 -14)
Portion with less than 4 foes: 55%. (Not exactly "overwhelming", just barely even majority)
Portion of non-set piece single monster fights that also had less then 4 (i.e. 2 or 3 foes) 29%.

If you had been right, it wouldn't matter.
But you were also wrong.

5. It is almost always better to gang up on a single target than damage multiple targets. There are exceptions to this, but, focus fire is almost always the best tactic to use. Half killing two ogres is far less effective than killing one and leaving one fresh. So, again, why move? You get into contact with one baddy and you stick with him until he's no longer breathing. Shifting targets by moving is most often a poor tactical choice.
This may be valid. But it says nothing whatsoever about game mechanics and speaks simply to Military school 101 level tactics. I'd presume this is just as true for 4E. And for any game that this isn't true, I'd see that as a strike against the merits of that game.

Edit: this also contradicts your item #1 which claims you should just attack whoever is in your face.

So, there it is. There are my 5 reasons why I think 3e combat tends to be static. Can you get around these issues? Quite possibly. If you use a lot of humanoids (no worries about losing multiple attacks until fairly high level), and large numbers of them at a time, you can likely get a more mobile encounter. Not my personal preferred solution since I like monsters too much. :D But, it should go a long way.
It may describe your game.
But beyond that... shrug
 
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