When Fantasy Racism gets stupid

[Derren]

Why not provide a generally accepted framework (orcs, drow, and ogres are bad, evil creatures) that the majority of DMs and players are more comfortable with as the base?

Are they? Whats left of the once large D&D fanbase likely is. Everyone else who wants complex games has already left.
And if 5E wants to regain those players (stated goal) then it shouldn't continue down the line of 4E (simple, one dimensional monsters)

If you want to tailor your campaign so that all ogres are really just big, lovable creatures with anger management issues (aka, Shrek), you can do that. Why does that take away from the game if it is not core? It speaks to a lack of imagination if you need core to provide your monster / race motivations.

I would rather say the inability of you to simply leave out stuff which is in the books is the problem here.
Why should someone choose a game system where he has to do everything himself because the system is primarily made for simple hack&slash games instead of a system which already does some work for him?
Because its D&D? Since 4E and Pathfinder the brand bonus isn't enough any more.

That has nothing to do with a lack of imagination, but with time management.

And here is another question for you - what is a more dangerous path for WOTC to traverse: using generally accepted fantasy ideals and frameworks or going out on a limb and pursuing a specific agenda for a core race / monster that may or may not sit well with the majority of gamers?

Whats more dangerous? Continuing with 4E style of design which was a big failure and has driven away large parts of its customers thereby getting more and more eclipsed by video games which provide better H&S and are catching up on the social component, or using a different kind of design which sets it apart from Video games?

 

[Dellamon]

Are they? Whats left of the once large D&D fanbase likely is. Everyone else who wants complex games has already left.
And if 5E wants to regain those players (stated goal) then it shouldn't continue down the line of 4E (simple, one dimensional monsters)

I would rather say the inability of you to simply leave out stuff which is in the books is the problem here.
Why should someone choose a game system where he has to do everything himself because the system is primarily made for simple hack&slash games instead of a system which already does some work for him?
Because its D&D? Since 4E and Pathfinder the brand bonus isn't enough any more.

That has nothing to do with a lack of imagination, but with time management.

Whats more dangerous? Continuing with 4E style of design which was a big failure and has driven away large parts of its customers thereby getting more and more eclipsed by video games which provide better H&S and are catching up on the social component, or using a different kind of design which sets it apart from Video games?

Actually, what you are calling 4E is OD&D /1E / 2E. You might want to re-look at some of the books. The whole monster motivation thing really started in the later editions. Not to say it was never in the earlier editions, but in those case it was a supplement or house rule - not core. And we will just have to agree to disagree on the imagination vs. time management issue. Keep in mind - you could still buy a module / supplement that has all the angst and monster motivation you want pre-packaged with a bow on it. Please leave core alone so that people who want to customize can do so and the majority of players do not have customize it to meet with accepted fantasy norms.

 

[Derren]

Actually, what you are calling 4E is actually OD&D /1E / 2E. You might want to re-look at some of the books. The whole monster motivation thing really started in the later editions. Not to say it was never in the earlier editions, but in those case it was a supplement or house rule - not core. And we will just have to agree to disagree on the imagination vs. time management issue. Keep in mind - you could still buy a module / supplement that has all the angst and monster motivation you want pre-packaged with a bow on it. Please leave core alone so that people who want to customize can do so and the majority of players do not have customize it to meet with accepted fantasy norms.

The game evolved and adapted to modern times where racism and stereotypes became less and less accepted and times where games became ever more complex, especially because of the advancement of computers.
And then the game degenerated back to its roots. We all know what happened.

And how often do you see that games which, in their core, are simply H&S games get campaign settings/modules for complex scenarios? Never. The tone of the core rules set the tone of the edition.

Please leave core rules alone so that people who want complex games have a foundation to work with and people who like simple games can use them as they are and just ignore all the stuff they don't care about.

It might also surprise you, but there is more to fantasy than just Tolkien. Especially after 4E and the mass exodus of players you have to stop believing that D&D defines what fantasy is and instead you should look at the fantasy literature of the time to see what "accepted fantasy norms" are. And most of them today have more complex monsters than "always evil" orcs.

 

[Dellamon]

The game evolved and adapted to modern times where racism and stereotypes became less and less accepted and times where games became ever more complex, especially because of the advancement of computers.
And then the game degenerated back to its roots. We all know what happened.

And how often do you see that games which, in their core, are simply H&S games get campaign settings/modules for complex scenarios? Never. The tone of the core rules set the tone of the edition.

Please leave core rules alone so that people who want complex games have a foundation to work with and people who like simple games can use them as they are and just ignore all the stuff they don't care about.

It might also surprise you, but there is more to fantasy than just Tolkien. Especially after 4E and the mass exodus of players you have to stop believing that D&D defines what fantasy is and instead you should look at the fantasy literature of the time to see what "accepted fantasy norms" are. And most of them today have more complex monsters than "always evil" orcs.

Ok, you have lost me here. You are saying you want the core game to conform to your ideals because fantasy has evolved. Do tell, how has it evolved and what is your ideal core? I wonder if it will match the majority of players? The way I see it, you are stating you are tired of the traditional Tolkien fantasy model and want something different. Thats fine, but I would highly doubt you are in the majority with that mindset. I want my game to be mine, not yours, not Tolkiens, not R.A Salvatore's. An open framework, which you label Hack and Slash (which I 100% disagree with), provides for that. I would find it hard to believe any major game currently being sold would make you happy with your stance.

 

[Derren]

Ok, you have lost me here. You are saying you want the core game to conform to your ideals because fantasy has evolved. Do tell, how has it evolved and what is your ideal core? I wonder if it will match the majority of players? The way I see it, you are stating you are tired of the traditional Tolkien fantasy model and want something different. Thats fine, but I would highly doubt you are in the majority with that mindset. I want my game to be mine, not yours, not Tolkiens, not R.A Salvatore's. An open framework, which you label Hack and Slash (which I 100% disagree with), provides for that. I would find it hard to believe any major game currently being sold would make you happy with your stance.

An open framework is not based on "kill evil monsters in dungeons".
Am I the majority? The majority of what? Of D&D players? Of players who used to play D&D before 4E came out? Of PnP RPG players in general?

 

[Zireael]

1) I'd change thread title. I see no 'racism' in D&D, nor in any other fantasy, nor in any other game. (the words are bolded for a reason). 'Racism' is a RL world thing, which does not belong in a fantasy or in a game. And D&D is both.

2) I see nothing wrong with retaining the current (AD&D, 3e) situation in the core - that is, the majority is X, but there are exceptions.

If someone wants to run his game, he can do it. It would be nice if different styles of running D&D were covered in a DMG/a module, but it's not necessary. After all, it's your game and your imagination!

 

[Dellamon]

An open framework is not based on "kill evil monsters in dungeons".
Am I the majority? The majority of what? Of D&D players? Of players who used to play D&D before 4E came out? Of PnP RPG players in general?

I'm not sure why you keep associating this mindset with 4E. I'm a 1E / C&C player. We love being able to customize. 4E was not very customizable (in my opinion).

 

[Derren]

I'm not sure why you keep associating this mindset with 4E. I'm a 1E / C&C player. We love being able to customize. 4E was not very customizable (in my opinion).

Because WotC tries not to do a combination between 1E and 3E but 4E and 3E. And 4E was exactly the throwback into old design which drove away people.

 

[Dire Bare]

1) I'd change thread title. I see no 'racism' in D&D, nor in any other fantasy, nor in any other game. (the words are bolded for a reason). 'Racism' is a RL world thing, which does not belong in a fantasy or in a game. And D&D is both.

2) I see nothing wrong with retaining the current (AD&D, 3e) situation in the core - that is, the majority is X, but there are exceptions.

If someone wants to run his game, he can do it. It would be nice if different styles of running D&D were covered in a DMG/a module, but it's not necessary. After all, it's your game and your imagination!

Yeah, right. Maybe it shouldn't, but it is. You can't honestly tell me that black people playing D&D and being uncomfortable with the story of the drow is just a made up issue. Or that Native American players (and other folks from hunter/gatherer cultural traditions) being uncomfortable with the typical D&D portrayal of savage cultures (orcs, gnolls, even human barbarians, etc) is them being over-sensitive.

Racism clearly exists in myth, in fantasy literature, and unsurprisingly in D&D lore. Because all of that stuff was written by humans, and humans are racist. Or better yet, humans are tribal. I'm about a liberal as a person can be, have many friends of different races and cultures, but even I have racist tendencies that I acquired growing up. Denying it is foolish, acknowledging it and trying to change is admirable.

The racism in D&D is more subtle than some yahoo yelling out racial epithets or discriminating against gamers of color, and most of us WASPy gamers aren't always aware of it unless it's pointed out (and sometimes, not even then). I don't think we should be beating ourselves up over the issue, both as gamers and the many game designers over the years, as this sort of subtle racism is actually pretty common across the board. But being aware of it, acknowledging it, and working towards changing it are noble and good endeavors.

But it's there.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

You know, I'm getting really sick of the kneejerk politically correct nonsense that's being thrown around here.

Yeah, there are lot of parts of D&D and fantasy lit in general that come from racist sources. 'Lost cities' are based on colonialists' inability to comprehend that African and South American 'savages' had civilizations and technology of their own. The Drow are cursed with black skin because of their inherent evil and their crimes against the gods. It's okay to kill orcs because they're not really people, because they're less civilized, because they're different. These tropes all have their roots in some form of cultural bias.

But you know what? Using these tropes in fantasy fiction is not a racist act. It does not promote the racist ideals they're based on. It does not encourage people to engage in racial discrimination or stereotyping. It does not belittle the cultural sensibilities of real ethnic minorities, nor does it diminish their real struggles for equal rights and recognition in the real world.

The only thing this incessant drive for censorship accomplishes is shaming people for having innocent fun with their friends and patronizing the people you're setting out to protect. It's insulting.

As far as giving the 'monsters' nuanced motivations... that's all well and good. I do that in my own games. But the thing about playing in a morally nuanced world is that they are, by definition, populated by morally nuanced characters. A lot of the conflict I see between 'nuanced' players and 'black and white' players arises from DMs treating the monsters and NPCs with sympathy... and then holding the PCs to black and white standards. Usually with a walloping dose of Good Is Dumb on the side.