D&D 4E The New Monster Math, Explained and Expanded

[Tequila Sunrise]

Yeah, I guess Resist and DR versus such broad attack types makes for highly party-dependent monsters.

EDIT: Updated MarMon to reflect play test results. (And Keterys' anecdotal counter-experience. )

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Update: My next session is being delayed a week. That'll give me more time to write up a more detailed encounter.

 

[pemerton]

they're vulnerable to close and area attacks... in many groups, that means that they die _faster_ than other monsters.

I've never seen a party with more than a couple area/close powers between the lot of 'em, so it's hard to imagine a party that makes a swarm look fragile. I see your point though, theoretically.

I use quite a few swarms, and in my game the experiences are closer to keterys's than TS's.

The fighter has mulitple close bursts. The CHA paladin has multiple close blasts. The wizard has multiple bursts and blasts, including Thunderwave and Cloud of Daggers. And then there's the sorcerer.

 

[Arlough]

I use quite a few swarms, and in my game the experiences are closer to keterys's than TS's.

The fighter has mulitple close bursts. The CHA paladin has multiple close blasts. The wizard has multiple bursts and blasts, including Thunderwave and Cloud of Daggers. And then there's the sorcerer.

It could be a case of the party moulding themselves to match their DM. My party, for example, uses very focused attacks to take down monster's quickly. (A monster with 1 hp does just as much damage as a monster full of life.) I tend to throw pack monsters that synergize from having more of them on the battlefield.

Of course that is just a theory. But if it is the case, then I would say that swarms should at least come with a warning. If we evaluate it based on occurrance, then swarms are definitely a minority by number in published sources. In that case, it is a mighty keyword.

 

[pemerton]

It could be a case of the party moulding themselves to match their DM. My party, for example, uses very focused attacks to take down monster's quickly. (A monster with 1 hp does just as much damage as a monster full of life.) I tend to throw pack monsters that synergize from having more of them on the battlefield.

Of course that is just a theory.

I'm not sure that I use that many swarms.

But it's true that my players aren't very focus fire in their play (and nor am I a very focus fire GM, although the fighter is mobile enough, sticky enough and - with his bursts - able to mark enough enemies that oftentimes I end up focusing on him).

That said, a sorcerer who goes for bursts rather than single-target attacks isn't giving up very much damage, given the bulk of the damage is on the adds rather than the dice.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

It could be a case of the party moulding themselves to match their DM.

My party did that for a while, but then stopped. For instance, the entire party has high AC scores, even though I'm not using many vs AC attacks any more. :/

Using swarms against them might get them to switch things up, although it won't help with the high AC situation.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Came back from the game with swarms. Seven people showed up, so I used three swarms (each representing a company of enemy soldiers) plus a commander (a controller [leader]) standing within one swarm and archer minions in an armored wagon with arrow slits. Not a single attack was made against the archers.

The barbarian had recently retrained away a close burst power that inflicted ongoing damage, so he was less of a factor in that battle. He also didn't use Phoenix Rage, which does ongoing damage. He attacked the commander.

The avenger focused on the commander, using a power to teleport the commander out of a swarm. The commander could teleport, but in his brief time away from the swarm, he took loads of damage from two strikers.

A fighter, played by a new player, used Come and Get It very effectively. It's a close burst attack, so... He didn't his damage aura so effectively though, due to being pushed around by the commander's abilities.

The shaman mainly did buffing and healing. So did the cleric. The cleric had less AoE than I had expected; he used Beacon of Hope, but that was more for the healing bonus than anything else.)

The paladin had a surprising array of close burst/blast powers. He used at least two that encounter, and I think he didn't use Radiant Delirium.

And we had a guest player. The player of the barbarian is also interested in the monk, so he had a Centered Breath monk of appropriate level lying around. The new player took this PC. I'd never seen a monk in actual combat before, but they have ... lots of AoE. Since each swarm represented 30 enemy soldiers, at one time he kicked 60 enemy soldiers in the butt. (Well, not really, but it seemed like that.) He could also slide groups of enemies around.

They turned out to be less grindy than I'd expected, even though they were also soldiers. This was due to some really cool uses of forced movement, and also not making all the enemies swarms, so people without AoE could focus on them.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Sounds cool!

I'd never expect the paladin to be the AoE guy, either. And yeah, monks are pretty rad.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Sounds cool!
I'd never expect the paladin to be the AoE guy, either.

The palladin in my group is also an AoE guy - he's got several powers that are close burst, all of which do thunder damage... I tease him about "shouting things to death".

 

[Terrance888]

Hello. I joined EN world for several reasons, but this is probably the best reason. I am running a tabletop campaign and I need new monsters in a format I can easily use while providing real challenge for my players, and this helped me so much with that! I will be running a session Sunday and I will tell you how they handle all the extra damage and tricks you gave me. Thanks!