[Playtest 2] Spell damage out of whack?

[Olgar Shiverstone]

We don't have new monsters, so I'll ignore them for now as comparing to the original playtest monsters may not be right. [Edit: Now I see there is a Bestiary file in the .MACOSX folder, but I can't open it for some reason.]

So let's compare them to the PCs.

Searing Light -- 3d8 hit, half miss, as a first level spell, admittedly with an attack roll. That's almost instant death for a 1st level PC on a hit (Average 15 points on a hit ... with 14 con a Cleric has 10, a fighter 12). A miss could still be an instant kill with a high damage roll. Note that other 1st level spells like Inflict Light Wounds are also 3d8 based.

Fireball & lightning bolt at 5d6 and 6d6 respectively are probably OK for 3d level with the saves for half (17.5 and 21 average respectively on missed save against a the cleric above at 5th level with 38 hp and a 5th level fighter with 44 means 3 fireballs to wipe out the party) . But then compare them to Flaming Sphere, a 2d level spell doing 4d6 per creature (up to 4 assuming a grid) before save ... that hangs around for a full minute attacking creatures each round (14 hp average vs 3d level cleric with 24 and fighter with 28 -- death in two rounds). Flaming Sphere is almost strictly better than the 3d level spells.

Magic missile I can get behind this time at one missile for 1d4+1.

Are we tripling hit points at level 1 somewhere that I missed? Wizard characters will be lucky to survive one spell exchange; fighters get outclassed with their measly 1d8 (or maybe d10 plus d6, with an expertise die plus a skill bump) damage.

 

[Someone]

"I suggest you slit your throat"

I'd be more worried about that.

 

[mlund]

We don't have new monsters, so I'll ignore them for now as comparing to the original playtest monsters may not be right.

So let's compare them to the PCs.

Let's not. I like the 4E conceit that Player Characters designed for multiple encounters or adventures are built on one framework and antagonists designed not to live past a single fight are built on another. I'd love another edition where higher-level monsters aren't judged by their effective caster level as a Sorcerer and access to the PC spell list.

Searing Light -- 3d8 hit, half miss, as a first level spell, admittedly with an attack roll. That's almost instant death for a 1st level PC on a hit (Average 15 points on a hit ... with 14 con a Cleric has 10, a fighter 12). A miss could still be an instant kill with a high damage roll.

Don't make Pelor angry. You won't like Pelor when he's angry. Seriously, though, a single-shot daily attack with a too-hit roll and only one target? That's probably about right.

Fireball & lightning bolt at 5d6 and 6d6 respectively are probably OK for 3d level with the saves for half (17.5 and 21 average respectively on missed save against a the cleric above at 5th level with 38 hp and a 5th level fighter with 44 means 3 fireballs to wipe out the party) .

Area of Effect spells with Saving Throws instead of to-hit rolls cut a different jib. Armor is useless against them, for starters.

But then compare them to Flaming Sphere, a 2d level spell doing 4d6 per creature (up to 4 assuming a grid) before save ... that hangs around for a full minute attacking creatures each round (14 hp average vs 3d level cleric with 24 and fighter with 28 -- death in two rounds). Flaming Sphere is almost strictly better than the 3d level spells.

Flaming sphere has a much smaller area of effect (15' diameter) and once it starts rolling it bashes into people for relatively minor damage plus enemies can run away from it. It's pretty awesome, but the it's a level 2 spell and the Wizard doesn't get a ton of them to mess around with. Also, there's a simple solution to the Sphere - kill the Wizard with his d4 Hit Dice. Seriously, he's got like 16 hit points if he took a 14 Constitution? Two decent hits from a Level 3 monster is going to have him face down choking on dirty. Glass cannons need fire-power.

Magic missile I can get behind this time at one missile for 1d4+1.

Agreed. I like the general scaling here: 1d4+1 auto-hit, 1d6+3 and minor debuff w/ ranged attack, 1d8+4 and minor debuff w/ melee attack.

Are we tripling hit points at level 1 somewhere that I missed? Wizard characters will be lucky to survive one spell exchange;

Inflict Moderate Wounds on the Dark Priest in the bestiary might be a problem on a Critical Hit (40 or 43 damage) but he's got +3 to hit vs. AC in melee and does 0 damage on a miss. Meanwhile I don't see anyone throwing Flaming Sphere or Fireball around in there yet.

On the other hand every character in the party surprised by a Medusa gets a DC 12 Constitution saving throw vs. being 1-shot-killed with infinite hit points - and no amount of clapping ... er ... bandages and cure wounds spells will bring you back from where she'll send you.

Elite Monsters are scary, even without spell lists.

- Marty Lund

 

[MerricB]

We don't have new monsters, so I'll ignore them for now as comparing to the original playtest monsters may not be right. [Edit: Now I see there is a Bestiary file in the .MACOSX folder, but I can't open it for some reason.]

You might have a corrupted download or a problematic unzip program: I've got the Bestiary from the main section of the download fine.

Level 1 monsters have ~3-5 hp
Level 3 monsters have ~11 hp.
Level 5 monsters have ~15 hp.
Level 5 elite has 52 hp.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Given that spell damage no longer scales with caster level (which IMO is a good thing), I'm baffled that they reduced starting character hit points. I thought the hp characters had in the first playtest packet were right on. I don't want to go back to the days where my starting wizard had like 4 or 5 hp and could die from stubbing his toe.

Also, the damage of basic spells is just... pathetic. Weapons already usually do more damage than basic spells do, and then you add on things like combat superiority and sneak attack, and casters just get left in the dust when they're not willing or able to expend daily spell slots. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with fighters and rogues having an advantage since they don't have dailies, but that gap doesn't need to be a chasm.

Rogue Sneak attack in particular is simply off the charts in this edition, starting at 2d6 and adding 1d6 at every single level. So much for "flatter math" and "reducing hp and damage across the board". With rogues, they went the exact opposite direction, which leaves me scratching my head.

And while I think the Necromancer theme is really cool, I'm very upset that you have to spend your entire action to make your one weak pet attack for a whopping 1d6 + 2 damage. Given the insane damage output that fighters and rogues are capable of now, that's just insulting. Would it really destroy balance if my wizard could do a 1d4 + 1 Magic Missile and his skeleton pet hit for 1d6 + 2 damage on the same turn? How is that overpowered at all when the rogue is stabbing people for +6d6 sneak attacks?

Bleh, anyway, I've gotten off on a rant. I don't want to sound like I hate the new playtest packet because there are alot of positives in it. They just really need to reevaluate the balance of hp, damage and classes.

 

[DEFCON 1]

They just really need to reevaluate the balance of hp, damage and classes.

Isn't that the point of the playtest packet?

 

[Falling Icicle]

Isn't that the point of the playtest packet?

Yes, it is. And by pointing out what needs to be fixed, we are being good little playtesters.

 

[NMcCoy]

Note that this playtest does not contain flanking, and that hiding usually takes an action. If you expect Sneak Attack only every other round, the damage seems rather more reasonable.

 

[Jester David]

Yes, it is. And by pointing out what needs to be fixed, we are being good little playtesters.

See how it PLAYS first, then point out what needs to be fixed. This cannot be overstated.

Note that this playtest does not contain flanking, and that hiding usually takes an action. If you expect Sneak Attack only every other round, the damage seems rather more reasonable.

Check out the Thug rogue scheme.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

Check out the Thug rogue scheme.

That requires 2 other characters/allies that have the target within reach.