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D&D 5E With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base

I think you have missed what is "dissociative" about hit points. The "knowing that I'm tired and battered and likely to fail soon in defence" is not the problem - that fact that I am apparently feeling this way and yet quite as able as ever to run, jump, climb, swim, shoot a bow or cast a spell, however, seems suspiciously similar to being "too tired to use an encounter power" and yet quite able to do all those same things.

I know I can't blame you for not knowing this but I wrote a proposed fatigue point system on the WOTC boards that only used certain types of attack powers (ones that can be explained as fatiguing). With such a system encounter based powers could be used. I'd want to use real terms like ten minutes vs "encounter" but that is minor flavoring. Practically it's the same.

4e though does not use this system. It also doesn't handle daily powers. I use one encounter and can't reuse it is an issue. But expending fatigue for any encounter power even repeatedly is non-dissociative.

I explain the fact that I fight on while wounded as cinematic heroism. I agree that it is not realistic. But it is not dissociative. There is a difference.
 

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I know I can't blame you for not knowing this but I wrote a proposed fatigue point system on the WOTC boards that only used certain types of attack powers (ones that can be explained as fatiguing). With such a system encounter based powers could be used.
Serious question: what's the difference between a fatigue system and 4e's AEDU structure, particularly w/r/t choice of action, ie, the thing that supposedly separates 'dissociated mechanics' from abstract mechanics?

To my mind, they both do the same thing: limit the number of extraordinary maneuvers a PC can perform in a given period of time (and thus introduce a resource management component). The only difference I can see is a difference in the amount of bookkeeping required. They're functionally identical. Two different methods of abstracting the same (fictional) thing.

How is a PC with 20 Activity Points to spend on specific actions (some of which cost zero points) functionally and categorically different from one with several Daily, Encounter, and At-Will abilities?

Preferring one methodology over the other is understandable. But some sort of theory which purports to explain the categorical difference produced by each methodologies --to the point where one is roleplaying and the other isn't-- well, that's less understandable, from a critical perspective.

Though it does make sense in a 'sometimes we like to jazz up our taste preferences with fancy-sounding theoretical frameworks' kind of way.
 
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So in normal life, people say things like 'I'm not buying that shirt, it's ugly' or 'these pants make me look fat'.

Then Comic Book Guy from Simpsons comes up with that voice of his and says "Wrong, you're just unable or unwilling to find that article of clothing acceptable to you or those around around you." Which I guess is technically correct.

OTOH, are they mutually exclusive? Isn't "ugly" subjective by definition, so that it's equally valid to claim 'that shirt is ugly'? It may not be nice, especially to the shirt designer or a person who likes that shirt. But is it logically invalid if the speaker defines 'dissociated' as subjective (like ugly)? In that case, 'this mechanic is dissociated' may be perjorative in certain circles but still a valid statement?

Or can dissociated be objective and subject to relativist fallacy? (I just looked that up now, I don't claim any competence in usage of relativist fallacy)

Whatever the fallout, I'm sticking to my 'feeling of dissociation' to be on the safe side of the fence when the sh*t hits the fans.

Gawd, I loooove Enworld so much :)
 
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Serious question: what's the difference between a fatigue system and 4e's AEDU structure, particularly w/r/t choice of action, ie, the thing that supposedly separates 'dissociated mechanics' from abstract mechanics?

In order for a fatigue point system to work these things have to be true...
1. The power has to at least seem fatiguing. No "Come and Get It".
2. All powers are restored after 10 minutes. Long term fatigue is not well modeled by powers being on or off. Thus dailies in particular are the most dissociative when it comes to martial activity.
3. Each individual power is not expended. Rather the pool of powers expend some kind of fatigue points. If encounter 1 uses X energy and encounter 2 uses X energy then if I have X energy left I can do either. If I don't then I can't do either. Being able to do 1 and not 2 is dissociative.

Now I'm not saying I love the above approach. I was offering a fig leaf to see if anyone on the other side thought it was interesting. I mostly prefer at-will powers for martial types.
 

So in normal life, people say things like 'I'm not buying that shirt, it's ugly' or 'these pants make me look fat'.

Then Comic Book Guy from Simpsons comes up with that voice of his and says "Wrong, you're just unable or unwilling to find that article of clothing acceptable to you or those around around you." Which I guess is technically correct.

OTOH, are they mutually exclusive? Isn't "ugly" subjective by definition, so that it's equally valid to claim 'that shirt is ugly'? It may not be nice, especially to the shirt designer or a person who likes that shirt. But is it logically invalid if the speaker defines 'dissociated' as subjective (like ugly)? In that case, 'this mechanic is dissociated' may be perjorative in certain circles but still a valid statement?

Or can dissociated be objective and subject to relativist fallacy? (I just looked that up now, I don't claim any competence in usage of relativist fallacy)

Whatever the fallout, I'm sticking to my 'feeling of dissociation' to be on the safe side of the fence when the sh*t hits the fans.

Gawd, I loooove Enworld so much :)

I think what bothers me and I think you is something that is definable. Meaning it is not subjective in that sense. A is and B is not. No subjectivity there. But whether it dissociates us is subjective. Obviously I'm assuming no one likes to be dissociated but I also believe some people are nearly impervious to it.


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Another example. Suppose I say I don't like chocolate. Well chocolate is a definable thing. It exists whatever I might think about it. But whether I like it or not is subjective. So dissociative mechanics as expressed in the article by that name (the modern one as I never saw the older less friendly one) is a precise thing. And I don't like it. Others don't either. But some do not mind it and may even like it.
 

So in normal life, people say things like 'I'm not buying that shirt, it's ugly' or 'these pants make me look fat'.
In normal life, most people stop at "Damn, that shirt is ugly".

They don't go on to create their Grand Unified Theory of Ugly Shirts, or if they do, they understand the act as one of self-deprecating humor and not legitimate, or even bastardized, critical inquiry.

"I don't like X" is inarguable.

"I don't like X. Here is my theory explaining why I don't like X and why it applies to you. Also, if you don't agree, you clearly don't understand" is a signed invitation to an argument!
 
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"I don't like X. Here is my theory explaining why I don't like X and why it applies to you. Also, if you don't agree, you clearly don't understand" is a signed invitation to an argument!
As long as you're aware that I never stated that, that's cool; carry on. (You know I'm wary of people coming up to me as if I'm the unelected proxy of some shib-niggurath)
 

In normal life, most people stop at 'Damn, that shirt is ugly.

The don't go on an create their Unified Theory of Ugly Shirts, or if they do, they understand the act as one of self-deprecating humor and not legitimate, or even bastardized, critical inquiry.

Just because you're not part of that particular enthusiast community and don't participate in doing so doesn't mean that people don't do it. Enthusiast and hobby communities, like the gamer community, aren't "normal life". They're enthusiast life. And hobbyists/enthusiasts spend a lot more time on the topic, thinking about their topics, thinking deeply about their topics, than normal people do. [Normal here is defined as not being part of that particular community - though chances are they belong to other enthusiast communities for which they live their own enthusiast lives.]
 

In order for a fatigue point system to work these things have to be true...
Can you explain why those things work better?

And do we agree they accomplish the same thing as the AEDU structure, ie limiting the opportunities for special/extraordinary results?

I wasn't asking for specifics re: implementation of a fatigue system.
 
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So in normal life, people say things like 'I'm not buying that shirt, it's ugly' or 'these pants make me look fat'.

...

Gawd, I loooove Enworld so much :)

In normal life there hasn't been a five year campaign, sometimes organised, and that often resorts to outright and unequivocal lies even when corrected with references and page numbers to marginalise people wearing specific shirts. (Actually, yes there has now I come to think of it in a number of cases including what colour belongs to what gender - and those deserve pushback too). And yes, I say five year when 4e is only four years old for a reason. If you want evidence, try reading grognards.txt on Something Awful.

In order for a fatigue point system to work these things have to be true...
1. The power has to at least seem fatiguing. No "Come and Get It".
2. All powers are restored after 10 minutes. Long term fatigue is not well modeled by powers being on or off. Thus dailies in particular are the most dissociative when it comes to martial activity.
3. Each individual power is not expended. Rather the pool of powers expend some kind of fatigue points. If encounter 1 uses X energy and encounter 2 uses X energy then if I have X energy left I can do either. If I don't then I can't do either. Being able to do 1 and not 2 is dissociative.

Now I'm not saying I love the above approach. I was offering a fig leaf to see if anyone on the other side thought it was interesting. I mostly prefer at-will powers for martial types.

1: Why? You are modelling the process at the expense of the outcome. See [MENTION=3887]Mallus[/MENTION]'s neat summary of why this is bad.
2: Here's a baby with bathwater issue. Because it doesn't do it well doesn't mean it shouldn't try. But this is provisionally acceptable.
3: This can happen if and only if there is another constraint presented on which power you are allowed to use. Spamtastic approaches you offer that reward merely doing the same thing over and over again are not acceptable.

You can possibly fix this with a second mechanic - for instance a roll for each combination to determine whether you gain the advanced version of it this turn - and you roll before picking what you do. And then throw in a fatigue point system. But you absolutely must have an incentive mechanism to not always do the same thing. If I can replace my fighter's play in combat with three lines of code this is unacceptable.

So, for a bivariate system you can have:

1: 3 fatigue points. Each Exploit costs a fatigue. At the start of your turn roll to see which exploits are augmented - the augment roll is 1d6 per exploit.

Exploit 1: Stop Thrust. Reaction triggered by being hit. Augmented on a 5+
Unaugmented: Make an attack agaisnt the enemy that does damage equal to your strength modifier if it hits. If this damage reduces the attacker to 0hp, the attacker only does half damage.
Augmented: Make a standard attack against the attacking enemy. If this damage reduces the attacker to 0hp, the attacker only does half damage.

Exploit 2: Through the Ranks. Augmented on a 4+
Unaugmented. Make a standard attack against your first enemy. Then move 5' and make a standard attack against a different enemy. Your first target gets an opportunity attack against you even if you didn't move.
Augmented. Instead of moving you shift and do not take an opportunity attack.

Exploit 3: Knock Them Down. Augmented on a 4+
Unaugmented: Make an attack against your enemy. On a hit you knock them prone and they take damage equal to your strength modifier.
Augmented: After knocking them prone you may follow up with your weapon and make a standard attack against them.
 

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