D&D 5E You can't necessarily go back

[B.T.]

D&D is not "going backward," since the majority of rules changes were not actual progress. There were changes, but few things I would consider objectively better.

 

[triqui]

it is my understanding* that there are a few generally accepted 'right' ways to build the various .

While i agree on most of your post, this is not right. There are as much freedom to build your char in WoW as the game allows. Some builds are mechanically better, and become cookie cutter, but the same goes about RPG. CharOp forums are full of cookie cutter builds, and advice about trap feats or bad spells you should avoid.

Of course you can ignore Char Op advices and mahe whatever character you want to roleplay, regardless of it's mechanical optimization. But the same is true in WoW. The cost is the same in both: being mechanically inferior to the tried true minmaxed builds

 

[Dannager]

Until computer games can handle spontaneously created user content there are no innovations worth mentioning.

Okay, really, what is making you say stuff like this? Do you actually believe that video games have nothing to offer tabletop roleplaying games in terms of gameplay inspiration, despite my providing to you, earlier, no fewer than three direct examples of video games inspiring cool D&D gameplay ideas? D&D (and other RPGs) have been taking inspiration from other forms of games for decades. Hell, just as another example, Paizo's Legacy of Fire Player's Guide includes a bunch of achievement feats that the designers outright state were inspired by achievements/trophies from current generation video games.

Tabletop RPGs are not sacred. They are not inviolate. They are not virgin territory unspoilt and uncorrupted by other games. Designers have been mining the world of entertainment media for inspiration since D&D was first put to paper, and that's exactly how it ought to be.

 

[Imaro]

The same goes of board games, puzzle games, party games, drinking games, video games, sports games, and gambling games. MMOs are fundamentally no different than any of those, in that they are all forms of game-based entertainment and can all be mined for inspiration. Any developer worth his salt will be able to appreciate the differences as well as the similarities.

So let's stop acting like MMOs are to tabletop RPGs as rock music was to a morally upright society in the 50's.

Well by this logic, almost any and everything can be mined for inspiration... but how does this help one determine what should be mined from what shouldn't. This is what I think many posters are speaking too. And, IMO, that's the important question developers must face, not what are the similarities and what are the differences.

 

[Imaro]

double post...

 

[Argyle King]

While i agree on most of your post, this is not right. There are as much freedom to build your char in WoW as the game allows. Some builds are mechanically better, and become cookie cutter, but the same goes about RPG. CharOp forums are full of cookie cutter builds, and advice about trap feats or bad spells you should avoid.

Of course you can ignore Char Op advices and mahe whatever character you want to roleplay, regardless of it's mechanical optimization. But the same is true in WoW. The cost is the same in both: being mechanically inferior to the tried true minmaxed builds

I think this is true for more modern D&D which has a more vertical structure and some of the games in the d20 family, but not necessarily true of tabletop gaming in general. That was actually part of the point to my post; that tabletop games are starting to adopt some of those features. It's not something I feel (on a personal level) is one of the better features to borrow from video games.

 

[Argyle King]

The same goes of board games, puzzle games, party games, drinking games, video games, sports games, and gambling games. MMOs are fundamentally no different than any of those, in that they are all forms of game-based entertainment and can all be mined for inspiration. Any developer worth his salt will be able to appreciate the differences as well as the similarities.

So let's stop acting like MMOs are to tabletop RPGs as rock music was to a morally upright society in the 50's.

I've acted like nothing. I only said the differences were just as important (if not more-so) than the similarities.

Personally, I will admit that I do feel MMOs have been an overall negative influence on some of the more popular modern games. Plenty of people enjoy what they feel are innovations and good things to borrow. For me, while I do feel there are things that have enhanced tabletop gaming; things that were borrowed from other mediums, I feel as though there are some defining features of tabletop games which originally attracted me to play tabletop games. Some of those features are -imo- being eroded away, and I do not feel that is a good thing.


edit: I don't mind mixing things. You brought up musical tastes. I think some groups have done an excellent job of bringing different styles of music together. Beyond music, there are other mixes I enjoy as well. While it's not a mix per se, I think hot wings can be used to describe my feelings on the subject. I highly enjoy hot and spicy food. I'm a huge fan of Cajun food. However, one thing which bothers me -especially that I again reside in the North (Pennsylvania in case you're wondering)- is that many places make things hot just for the sake of being hot. You cannot taste the underlying dish anymore. I do not feel that is good. I want spice, but I still want to be able to taste what I'm eating underneath it too. The spice should add to the flavor; not overpower it.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Hell, just as another example, Paizo's Legacy of Fire Player's Guide includes a bunch of achievement feats that the designers outright state were inspired by achievements/trophies from current generation video games.

Really? Ug. I can't think of much I hate worse than achievements in mmos. They picked the wrong thing to emulate imo.

 

[B.T.]

Paizo's Legacy of Fire Player's Guide includes a bunch of achievement feats that the designers outright state were inspired by achievements/trophies from current generation video games.

And those feats were absolutely terrible, and Paizo remains a subpar developer. Videogames have nothing to offer tabletop RPGs.

 

[mudbunny]

And those feats were absolutely terrible, and Paizo remains a subpar developer. Videogames have nothing to offer tabletop RPGs.

Armchair game designers say that videogames have nothing to offer RPGs.

A real game designer does not allow the source to determine whether a potential innovation is good or bad.