D&D 4E My first taste of 4e, and what it means for 5e.

The DM is supposed to be familiar with the pregens exactly for that reason. How many powers do you think these pregens have? 4 powers is not a "multitude", and the classes for encounters are super simple.

Like I mentioned for the last 4-5 seasons, out of 10, the pregens have been identical specifically to promote familiarity. The back side of an index card easily covers what these characters have as options. This is not brain surgery to a DM. So no "screeching" halts are really necessary, and as the players become more comfortable they get better at it too, requiring less DM involvement.

I think you are conflating multiple issues into one, and that is not the case for encounters.

4 powers per player and 5 players is 20 powers, and again that's not counting class abilities such as marking, curses, etc. So the DM is suppose to remember 20 powers and be able to help the players apply them in the battle as well as track and run his own monsters without missing a beat? That seems like a bit much to me, in the encounters I've experienced it has usually fallen on an experienced player to help a player whose new... the problem is that there isn't always an experienced player around to pick up the slack.
 

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4 powers per player and 5 players is 20 powers, and again that's not counting class abilities such as marking, curses, etc. So the DM is suppose to remember 20 powers and be able to help the players apply them in the battle as well as track and run his own monsters without missing a beat? That seems like a bit much to me, in the encounters I've experienced it has usually fallen on an experienced player to help a player whose new... the problem is that there isn't always an experienced player around to pick up the slack.

Lot of hypotheticals, and armchair quaterbacking there. It might seem "a bit much" to you. And if you make it more complicated than it needs to be, it will. In practice that is not the case.

The point still remains that new players need help. If there is another experienced player at the table, who does this responsibility still lie upon? The DM. Which is exactly what I said before. Another experienced player at a table is a bonus, not a necessity. Specially since explaining the "rules" at run time to one player serves the function of explaining it to all of them. How difficult is it really to explain what a "standard, move, minor action" are used for?

If you want to believe that it's more complicated than it really is, overwhelming in some way, or will bring the game to a "screeching halt", then nothing I say will make that preconception go away.

It might be that way for you, as you say. Maybe theoretically as you describe it, it is. But in actual practice, at the game table, I have never seen a DM that had the amount of "difficulty" you seem to think they should.
 

Another thing I noticed in 4e that 5e needs to avoid: healing doesn't matter. Dropping to negatives in 4e isn't scary, especially not when the healer is nearby and he can set you up with a healing surge as a minor action and get you in the game. Generally, when a PC drops, I like it to be a tense situation: you're down, and there's a chance you're not getting up. While 3e's system wasn't great for various reasons, it worked a whole heck of a lot better than 4e's. There wasn't really any tension for a player going unconscious in 4e--it was just assumed the ardent would use her encounter power to get the player back in the game, and the real risk was action denial.

As to people talking about the bard's healing: the player was an Essentials bard, and the way the healing power works is that the bard can spend a minor action to let another player spend a healing surge as a minor action. At least, that's how it's described on the character sheet, which seems pretty weak compared to the ardent's abilities. (Perhaps they made a mistake?)
 

The DM is supposed to be familiar with the pregens exactly for that reason. How many powers do you think these pregens have? 4 powers is not a "multitude", and the classes for encounters are super simple.

Yes, but the presentation is frightful.

I do think 4th Ed would have worked a lot better if there was a paragraph of text or two for most classes explaining what the mechanics represented and how to play them well, and then a further paragraph for the pregens explaining their at wills.

Something like.

"Rogue: As a rogue you are fast, tricksy, and a master at finding the unexpected angle. In game terms this is represented by Sneak Attack - when you have Combat Advantage you do +2d6 damage (on your first hit of the turn). In practice this means that the average damage output from a rogue with combat advantage will be almost twice that of a rogue without, so a rogue in skilled hands will be attempting to gain sneak attack every turn. Sources of Comabt Advantage include flanking, attacking while starting the action hidden, or attacking an enemy who has been either dazed or knocked prone by one of your allies (prone, of course, only gives you extra opportunities in melee)."

"Luxor the Rogue. Luxor the Rogue is sneaky, able to appear from unexpected angles, and when given an easy opportunity instead of having to make one, he is very good at exploiting it. Because of this Luxor's At Wills are Deft Strike and Sly Flourish. Deft Strike represents Luxor's ability to appear from unexpected angles and can either be used to move you into flanking, or have you leap out of cover and throw a dagger without losing the hidden status until the end of the action (so you can either hide behind something with your move action and then Deft Strike or Deft Strike and then hide). Sly Flourish represents Luxor's ability to fully exploit an existing situation, and increases his damage by 2. This, of course, is not as useful as a full Sneak Attack but means that if Luxor already has combat advantage (for instance from Flanking) he does yet more damage, and if you can see no way to gain combat advantage it's not as much of a loss."

Alternatively for another class:

"Fighter: As a fighter you are a master of any enemies who get into sword range and control the battlefield around you. This is represented by three abilities: Marking, Combat Challenge, and Combat Superiority. Marking represents that you are as good at getting in the enemy's face as a star lineman, point guard, or defender, so they have a -2 to any attempts to ignore you. Combat Challenge is a big part of the reason they get this -2; you as a fighter are extremely alert and if a marked target takes their eye off you even to try to sneak away or attack someone else, you see this momentary lapse in concentration and get an opportunity, once per round, to cut them open (something that would make a lineman's job much easier). And Combat Superiority represents your superior ability with opportunities normal people would see, giving you a to hit bonus and meaning that the enemy can either stop or run all the way up your sword."

"Bes the Fighter: As Bes, you may be small but you are aggressive and powerful. Your At Will attacks are Tide of Iron and Cleave. Tide of Iron represents your driving aggression, allowing you to force even much bigger enemies back as you advance under cover of your shield - or beating the brains out of anyone stupid enough to stay still and unlucky enough not to parry. Cleave also represents your brute force and aggressive approach, in this case your ability to deal with superior numbers that would bog a lesser person down - when you hit one foe you can work against a second, doing a much lower (but still significant) amount of damage to them - or simply killing a minion."

Those are just dashed off - and are the sort of thing I see when designing a 4e character (and therefore am incredibly unsympathetic to the idea 4e lacks flavour). But they aren't actually presented explicitely - instead 4e makes you figure out how things fit together.

And I agree that Healing Surges is a really crummy name. Something like "Endurance points" would be much better.
 

Lot of hypotheticals, and armchair quaterbacking there. It might seem "a bit much" to you. And if you make it more complicated than it needs to be, it will. In practice that is not the case.

The point still remains that new players need help. If there is another experienced player at the table, who does this responsibility still lie upon? The DM. Which is exactly what I said before. Another experienced player at a table is a bonus, not a necessity. Specially since explaining the "rules" at run time to one player serves the function of explaining it to all of them. How difficult is it really to explain what a "standard, move, minor action" are used for?

If you want to believe that it's more complicated than it really is, overwhelming in some way, or will bring the game to a "screeching halt", then nothing I say will make that preconception go away.

It might be that way for you, as you say. Maybe theoretically as you describe it, it is. But in actual practice, at the game table, I have never seen a DM that had the amount of "difficulty" you seem to think they should.

I find it hillarious that you claim I am citing "hypotheticals" or "armchair quarterbacking" when I've stated that I have witnessed this firsthand... apparently both I and the OP... how about you accepting that maybe, just maybe your experiences aren't the only ones that exist and may not even be the majority of experiences that happen with new players.
 

I find it hillarious that you claim I am citing "hypotheticals" or "armchair quarterbacking" when I've stated that I have witnessed this firsthand... apparently both I and the OP... how about you accepting that maybe, just maybe your experiences aren't the only ones that exist and may not even be the majority of experiences that happen with new players.

Sure I'll do that, if you accept that maybe, just maybe your experiences aren't the only ones that exist and may not even be the majority of experiences that happen with new players. See how that goes?

I find it hilarious that a DM would have as much difficulty as you seem to describe in helping the players at his table. If he makes it overly complicated, as it seems the DM in the OP did, then he (the DM) made it overly complicated.

Your experience might vary from mine, but that doesn't change the fact that the "responsibility" of "teaching" the game usually falls on the DM. Most DMs are eager to teach the game and help their newbie players. They don't see it as a chore, or overly complicated.

If your experience is different, then I'm sorry that you had such "poor" DMs.
 


Sure I'll do that, if you accept that maybe, just maybe your experiences aren't the only ones that exist and may not even be the majority of experiences that happen with new players. See how that goes?

I find it hilarious that a DM would have as much difficulty as you seem to describe in helping the players at his table. If he makes it overly complicated, as it seems the DM in the OP did, then he (the DM) made it overly complicated.

Your experience might vary from mine, but that doesn't change the fact that the "responsibility" of "teaching" the game usually falls on the DM. Most DMs are eager to teach the game and help their newbie players. They don't see it as a chore, or overly complicated.

If your experience is different, then I'm sorry that you had such "poor" DMs.

Okay, first... I totally accept that for some DM's it is easy for them to monitor over 20 powers spread out amongst 5 different players while also running their monsters and the general game as well. Now, how about you cool it with the thinly veiled insults.

I've DM'd 4e and I've played under good DM's with 4e... Which, contrary to your inferences, has nothing whatsoever to do with whether a single DM would have an "easy" time teaching 5 new players 4e while running the game. I've tried to be civil with you and I'd appreciate it if you would return the favor. I've stated the reasons it was hard, but you've stated nothing to back up your own assertions of it being easy, all you do is repeat the same thing, "It's easy", over and over again... repetition doesn't make it so. How about you give us an example where you ran a game and had five totally new players who needed help running their characters and show us how you were able to help them and keep the game going smoothly?
 

Yes, but the presentation is frightful.

Maybe, but we are talking about pregens. Which, as I mentioned, for the past 4-5 seasons have been exactly the same with no variation. The reason for this is to promote familiarity which is what WotC mentioned at DDXP last year.

In the case of the OP the DM provided pregens from what seems to be every season ever published, including some that were horrible (all the psionic ones), and Binwin Bronzebottom is not even a pregen from any season of D&D Encounters. Then he did not seem to take any time during "runtime" helping the players make "informed" decisions.

So let's keep the issues in proper perspective. Would pregens be better if they had a description like you mentioned? Yes. Is that description a must? No. Is it the DMs "responsibility" to help new players? Yes

The pregens are printed front, and back on one half of an 8.5" x 11". I imagine that this is done to make the sheet as compact as possible and still provide the relevant mechanical information to the player. Each of the powers has only the mechanical information provided. No flavor text is shown.

So I agree the sheets are "bad" in my opinion, but they are utilitarian and serve the main purpose of putting the needed "rules" elements in front of the player.

As a pregen it has no information on conditions, saves, roles, turns, etc. The "rules" are left for the DM to present. And with the description of the OP it seems like this was handled poorly. But is that a problem with the actual game system? I can't agree with that.
 

Another thing I noticed in 4e that 5e needs to avoid: healing doesn't matter. Dropping to negatives in 4e isn't scary, especially not when the healer is nearby and he can set you up with a healing surge as a minor action and get you in the game. Generally, when a PC drops, I like it to be a tense situation: you're down, and there's a chance you're not getting up. While 3e's system wasn't great for various reasons, it worked a whole heck of a lot better than 4e's. There wasn't really any tension for a player going unconscious in 4e--it was just assumed the ardent would use her encounter power to get the player back in the game, and the real risk was action denial.

To each their own. I greatly prefer to see HP totals going frantically up and down all over the battlefield as the fight progresses, and I hope that is something that Next maintains. In particular, low levels tend to be very swingy due to low HP, and if that's the case I hope healing stays readily accessible. I wouldn't want to lose a player to a random natural 20 on the monster's side without any way to reactively prevent it (proactive prevention helps but it shouldn't be the only answer). The battles in 4E that are really stressful are the ones where people are still dropping after the leader has already burned their encounter heals--which can happen.

As to people talking about the bard's healing: the player was an Essentials bard, and the way the healing power works is that the bard can spend a minor action to let another player spend a healing surge as a minor action. At least, that's how it's described on the character sheet, which seems pretty weak compared to the ardent's abilities. (Perhaps they made a mistake?)

The skald aura allows either the bard to use a minor action to heal an adjacent ally, or an ally in the aura to use a minor action to heal him/herself. The bard must use a minor action to activate the aura at the start of a battle but with the people I play with it's generally assumed the aura is always active since it's at-will.
 

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