D&D 5E Class Dice

[Chris_Nightwing]

Yep, the dice would combine so, for example a fighter/wizard could use his dice for spells, combat manuevers or weapon damage. If the dice are scaled properly, it would create some interesting interplay. F'ex, if you took mostly fighter levels and one or two wizard levels, you'd have fewer dice for spells than a straight wizard, but your damage spells would be "bigger".

I thought dice would be better than points on the assumption that rolling dice is "more fun"; I also prefer more randomization to downplay the optimization with static points.

The problem is that you only have two dimensions to work with: the number of dice and the number of sides on each dice. I can see that multiclassing might offer you more, weaker dice, but the range of dice is pretty limited. Instead you can bake the dice rolling into the points spend, coupled with your class choices.

 

[Kinak]

I could definitely see playing this.

With each of them refreshing by round, like the current fighter dice, it could work out pretty well. If nothing else, counterspelling could finally start to work.

Each class could also have it's own method of getting back dice (fighters get them every round, rogues get them at the end of combat or by pulling off tricks, wizards get them back with an action, clerics get them back in their daily prayers or whatever). I'm mostly thinking about that because of healing, although there are obviously other ways of that working, but also because it would add a bit of flavor back in.

At the end of the day, though, I think I'd still prefer a system where each class works on different mechanics. It doesn't matter much to me as a GM, but one problem my players had with pre-Essentials 4e is that if you didn't like the AEDU mechanic, you were basically stuck. This would give them a similar problem if they didn't like allocating dice.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Stormonu]

Yeah, it definately has drawbacks if your not into a variant of the AEDU system, but it does make for super-easy characters (esp. wizard blaster).

Clerical healing might be one of those things that reduces the dice pool, or perhaps puts anything over certain level not feasible to cast during battle.

If this could be worked to allow for counterspelling, that'd be awesome.

I've made a test spreadsheet where I've been fiddling with how much dice each class gets at each level, but I can't attach it from where I'm at right now. Will do as soon as I can.

For now, I'll say the test numbers look like:

1st level: Fighter 1d6*, Wizard 2d4, Rogue 1d6*, Cleric 1d6, ave 27 dam/rnd
5th level: Fighter 3d6*, Wizard 4d4, Rogue 3d6*, Cleric 2d8, ave 49 dam/rnd
10th level: Fighter 5d8*, Wizard 6d6, Rogue 5d6*, Cleric 5d6, ave 82 dam/rnd


* Note the character will also get weapon dice (and ability mods) if applying towards damage.

That means, if you want an "average" straight-up fight that lasts about five rounds, you'd need a group of monsters whose total hit points at each of the three levels of:

1st: total 135 hp of monsters (4 monsters w/ ~35 hp)
5th: total 245 hp of monsters (4 monsters w/ ~61 hp)
10th: total of 410 hp of monsters (4 monsters w/ ~102 hp)

Don't know about ya'll, but that does seem a bit high to me.
Hmmm...may need to tweak the fighter down to d6s at 10th.

 

[Stormonu]

Please forgive my constant updates, working on the math of this thought experiment.

On my spreadsheet, I downshifted the dice math, this is what I'm looking at now:

1st level: Fighter 1d4, Wizard 2d4, Rogue 1d6, Cleric 1d6; ave 24 dam/rnd
3rd level: Fighter 1d8, Wizard 3d4, Rogue 1d6, Cleric 2d6; ave 32 dam/rnd
5th level; Fighter 2d8, Wizard 4d4, Rogue 2d6, Cleric 3d6; ave 39 dam/rnd
7th level; Fighter 3d6, Wizard 4d6, Rogue 3d6, Cleric 4d6; ave 53 dam/rnd
10th level; Fighter 5d6, Wizard 6d6, Rogue 4d6, Cleric 5d6; ave 74 dam/rnd

As before, both the fighter and rogue would add their weapon die and ability mods to any damage they deal (calculated into the "ave dam/rnd). Probably would make a spell for clerics where they can put X-1d towards weapon damage.

I'm also assuming that the rogue would be spending 1 die for "positioning" (or a die every other round when he only has 1d) to perform sneak attack (with that going away at about 10th level to keep up)

That would put an "average" 5 round combat at:

1st level: total 120 hp for monster (4 @ ~ 30 hp)
3rd level: total 150 hp for monsters (4 @ ~ 37 hp)
5th level: total 210 hp for monsters (4 @ ~ 52 hp)
7th level: total 265 hp for monsters (4 @ ~ 66 hp)
10th level: total 370 hp for monsters (4 @ ~ 92 hp)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I am not sure I want an overall feature like that in the core rules... Seems restraining...

There is nothing against that as an optional rule!

edit: on the other hand, your hp progression for monsters looks quite cool!

 

[GameDoc]

If you do Expertise Dice for all classes, it might be a simpler design to just have them defined by your character level and everyone at the same level has the same number and value of dice. That would also allow Multiclassing characters to use their entire dice pool for all ther classes.

 

[Stormonu]

I was thinking of doing that at first, but feared I'd run into the complaint of 4E about homoginization. I thought with a slightly different skew for each major class group I could create a little more variety in both the how many, how much and what it's good for.

As it is, it's still pretty close right now and could use a little more variety. I'd like to incorporate some better options for building "daily uses" for spellcasters, and I'd like to incorporate out-of-combat uses as well. Rogue would be the easiest for the last, allowing some form of skill mastery ability. Spellcasters could use the dice out of combat for spells - but what about fighters? Ability stunts?

 

[Stormonu]

I am not sure I want an overall feature like that in the core rules... Seems restraining...

There is nothing against that as an optional rule!

edit: on the other hand, your hp progression for monsters looks quite cool!

Yeah, I was beginning to think this would most likely be a module, instead of a core option.


To me, the damage output at 1st level is too high. I'd like to see an "average" combat with monsters be about 40 hp total, or ~ 10 hp for four creatures. I can live with about all the other totals I'm seeing, if they're accurate.

Perhaps a 0 level option with one less class die for each class?

 

[Stormonu]

Me again.

As I'm looking over this, one thing is emerging I'm not so fond of. The higher the level, the less and less value there is to having a mundane weapon - it becomes less and less of a factor in how you approach a fight. That may fine for some, but for my own game I would like to see martial gear still have value, regardless how many dice you're throwing.

I think this is also important to consider for the CS dice system we will see in 5E.

I don't want to bloat damage by just having weapons do "moar damage" at higher levels, but I think I'd rather have weapons unlock - or cheapen manuevers or whatnot. Perhaps a whip takes fewer CS dice to trip; polearms give reach; Axes have a "critical strike" you can activate (that does something other than extra damage), bludgeoning weapons could stun (put X dice towards "stun", on a 5+ on the die, the foe is stunned a round), and so on. Sure, it could get complicated quick, but if it's optional, players and DMs are free to ignore this kind of stuff and just do whopping hunks of damage.

 

[timASW]

Me again.

As I'm looking over this, one thing is emerging I'm not so fond of. The higher the level, the less and less value there is to having a mundane weapon - it becomes less and less of a factor in how you approach a fight. That may fine for some, but for my own game I would like to see martial gear still have value, regardless how many dice you're throwing.

I think this is also important to consider for the CS dice system we will see in 5E.

I don't want to bloat damage by just having weapons do "moar damage" at higher levels, but I think I'd rather have weapons unlock - or cheapen manuevers or whatnot. Perhaps a whip takes fewer CS dice to trip; polearms give reach; Axes have a "critical strike" you can activate (that does something other than extra damage), bludgeoning weapons could stun (put X dice towards "stun", on a 5+ on the die, the foe is stunned a round), and so on. Sure, it could get complicated quick, but if it's optional, players and DMs are free to ignore this kind of stuff and just do whopping hunks of damage.

Thats a good compromise. I didnt like AEDU but wierdly I do like this idea. Although I was thinking of having CS dice refresh every combat or hour rather then every round. Which would reduce the worry about just dice stacking damage each round.