Pathfinder 1E Hide in Plain Sight = poor man's invisibility?

[Abraxas]

The description of the class should, in my view, drive the mechanics. The mechanics are not a goal unto themselves, but a means of bringing the envisioned character abilities to life.

Exactly, the mechanics define how the ability works in the game. If you want HiPS to not work agaisnt darkvision, write the rule for it so it doesn't work against darkvision. As it is written right now however, darkvision doesn't defeat the ability.

Explain to me, when I make my movie with a Pathfinder Shadowdancer, precisely what I show on the screen when the Shadowdancer uses HiPS. "Make an opposed roll, if successful he can't see you" does not create any kind of interesting and entertaining simulation of the source material. We clearly disagree on the relevance of that simulation, simply evidenced by dismissal of the "fluff" by that simple nomenclature.

When you make the movie you can simply show the shadowdancer fading from view - have all color fade from the shadow dancer as she becomes indistinct until you can no longer see her. What we disagree on is the requirement for "concealment" that you keep adding to the ability to satisfy your vision of verisimilitude. You can reskin the ability however you want - but that shouldn't change the way it works unless you want to actually change the way it works.

The disappearing Shadowmancer seems suspicious no matter how it is accomplished. The drawing out of shadowstuff to provide concealment no more or less so than "now you see him, now you don't".

But with your "pulling shadows from across the room" implementation, the opponent knows pretty much where the shadowdancer is because there's a great big visible shadow following her around.

And that is the failing of the description - it provides a mechanic lacking in context. It is that context that enables the ability to be arbitrated and administered.

There is plenty of context - you just don't like it.

I also note that there is no requirement that there be anything to hide behind to use Stealth. Rather, getting behind something allows you to remove yourself from direct observation, permitting stealth to be used. One use of Stealth is to sneak up behind someone, or even sneak past them - do you hide behind something throughout that process?

By the RAW the requirement to use stealth normally is having cover or concealment - so unless the stealthy character creates a distraction to cross an open area he does need something to provide cover/concealment while sneaking up to or past someone. Now, if you are willing to drop that requirement for the common rogue, why do you insist on adding a restriction that doesn't exist for the supernatural shadowdancer?

As a note: in 3.0 there were actual rules for maintaining stealth when the character didn't have cover/concealment for his entire path of travel.

As I said, enough to paint an evocative picture of the ability in action.

So someone who just fades from sight isn't evocative? It would sure freak the heck out of me.

I posit that it is the ability to use those shadows for concealment which causes the power to work. Some other suggestions have also been made which seem interesting as well. Tell me what my character sees - not "you can no longer see that guy", but what happened. "He just vanished" is not, to me, evocative of the Shadowdancer as a manipulator of shadows. If his powers do not evoke that feel, then the purpose of this special prestige class has failed.

There are plenty of ways to evocatively describe the ability that don't change how it works.

HiPS does not let you STAY hidden - it lets you begin using Stealth without the usual requirement of being unobserved, finding cover or distracting the observer.

It doesn't let you BEGIN to use stealth - it lets you use the stealth skill, period, under circumstances that normally would not allow it. The other fellow doesn't have an ability that lets him use stealth AT ALL while being observed.

If it said darkvision negates (or does not negate) this ability, then we would not be several pages into a discussion of whether it appropriately would do so, would we?

Nope. But it doesn't say that the shadowdancer uses the area of dim illumintaion to provide concealment either.

Here's a simple question - if the ability said, "while in areas of dim illumination the shadowdancer can use stealth even while being observed and with no cover" would you rule that darkvision foils the ability?

If yes, why? The altered version clearly states that she can use stealth "while being observed" and (going to the actual rules text) nothing in the description of darkvision says that having it causes areas of dim illumination to cease to exist.

If no, why doesn't the ability also work versus darkvision as it currently is written?

He is no longer using the supernatural ability - HiPS only allows him to use Stealth when he otherwise could not have done so due to being observed. Having made the Stealth roll, he is now using Stealth. Let us assume he crept behind his adversaries before the anti-magic shield was created. He remains in bright light. Do his adversaries detect him automatically, or must they defeat his Stealth with Perception?

If he gets behind his adversary, and is still within 10 ft of a non personal shadow, he can remain hidden until the Anti-magic field is cast. Once it is cast, he can no longer use HiPS or use stealth because HiPS is supernatural and he has no cover/concealment - he would automatically be spotted. There are no facing rules in the game - it's a simplification that has it's own problems - and I would happily house rule exceptions. However, I would admit that they were indeed houserules and not what the RAW says.

Again, HiPS allowed him to avoid the prohibition against using stealth while observed. He is now using stealth normally. Once he is concealed by stealth, he is no longer being observed. What you describe sounds a lot more like Invisibility than Stealth, at least to me.

It is a lot more like invisibility - it's a supernatural ability - it's magic. The only reason he can use the stealth skill is because of the supernatural ability - once the conditions for the supernatural ability to be used are no longer present he can no longer benefit from it.

Does a shadow under a table mean there is a dimly lit area? What if the shadow is cast by a small housecat? We have no basis for assessing how large any given shadow, or dimly lit area, needs to be. For me, I want to know HOW the ability works. Why not create a spell called "Create Damage". You cast it, and any target within, say, 200' takes 2-5 points of damage, plus another 2-5 per 2 caster levels, maximum 5x 2-5. Why even bother writing a Magic Missile spell - no need to define any of the magic's special effects since all that matters is the mechanic.

Why not change the description of Magic missile to bolts of blue shoot out of your fingertips and unerringly strike your chosen target. No need to list the mechanics, the DM will tell me what constitutes a target, how much damage it does, and what range it has.

I want the description to match the mechanics of the ability.

I have no problem with a DM determining if there is indeed dim illumination in the room - they already have to do that all the time. I have no problem with houserules. What I don't want is arbitrarily changing how the actual rules work and then not admitting that those changes are houserules.

Fair enough. Here again, the ability has been defined in some manner. I don't see this as being as consistent with the command of shadows/weave together the shadows to become half-seen artists of deception, but it's miles better than "well he just does".

It's also miles better than, well darkvision just foils it because I say so.

 

[Ashtagon]

A very relevant related question which completely sidesteps how darkvision works...

Suppose the sahdowthingy dude is 30 feet from our heroes, who are using a torch for illumination. The human has normal vision, so at that distance the torch provides shadowy illumination. The elf hero has low-light vision, so for him, the sahdowthingy dude is in an area of bright illumination.

What happens when sahdowthingy dude uses his hips? And how would his own low-light vision (or lack of it) affect the question of whether shadows are present for him to use?

 

[Abraxas]

A very relevant related question which completely sidesteps how darkvision works...

Suppose the sahdowthingy dude is 30 feet from our heroes, who are using a torch for illumination. The human has normal vision, so at that distance the torch provides shadowy illumination. The elf hero has low-light vision, so for him, the sahdowthingy dude is in an area of bright illumination.

What happens when sahdowthingy dude uses his hips? And how would his own low-light vision (or lack of it) affect the question of whether shadows are present for him to use?

It doesn't matter if either the elf hero or the shadowthingy dude have low light vision - the dim (shadowy) illumination is there regardless of their ability to see well in it. If this was not the case, if the ability actually depended on how well a creatures perceived dim illumination, the shadowthingy dude wouldn't be able to use the ability whenever he closed his eyes.

 

[Ashtagon]

I'd say the level of illumination is a subjective thing, not something that objectively exists.

Consider a pitch black hallway with a torch at point X. For a normal human, the space up to X+20 is bright light, and up to X+20 to X+40 is shadowy. For an elf, X+0 to X+40 is bright, and X+40 to X+80 is shadowy. If the level of illumination is an objective thing and not a subjective experience, then you are saying there is something objectively different about the light in the space between X+20 to X+40 and between X+40 to X+80. As far as I know, the only way the game has defined that difference is subjectively, depending on whether or not the observer has low-light vision or not.

By your logic, a human 60 feet from a torch can't use hips against the elf standing next to him, because they are both in an area of darkness (and hips requires shadowy illumination). The elf can see the human well enough to strike, because as far as the elf is concerned, the game effect is of shadowy illumination. The human, however, has no idea where the elf is, except by listening for him.

 

[Abraxas]

I'd say the level of illumination is a subjective thing, not something that objectively exists.

Consider a pitch black hallway with a torch at point X. For a normal human, the space up to X+20 is bright light, and up to X+20 to X+40 is shadowy. For an elf, X+0 to X+40 is bright, and X+40 to X+80 is shadowy. If the level of illumination is an objective thing and not a subjective experience, then you are saying there is something objectively different about the light in the space between X+20 to X+40 and between X+40 to X+80. As far as I know, the only way the game has defined that difference is subjectively, depending on whether or not the observer has low-light vision or not.

By your logic, a human 60 feet from a torch can't use hips against the elf standing next to him, because they are both in an area of darkness (and hips requires shadowy illumination). The elf can see the human well enough to strike, because as far as the elf is concerned, the game effect is of shadowy illumination. The human, however, has no idea where the elf is, except by listening for him.

You are absolutely correct - by the RAW the human couldn't use HiPS in total darkness - that is one of the situations that I would houserule differently (and I would out right state I am houseruling) but the house rule would be in favor of the character using the ability.

That being said, the level of illumination is a constant - it is determined by the type of light source. Different creatures may be able to see differently with a given light source but that doesn't change the light source.

By your logic HiPS starts and stops based on whoever happens to walk into the room and how acute their vision. It also causes the HiPS ability to work differently for different characters. A human could use it within 10ft of a lit torch while an elf would have to 30 ft from the same torch. It also stops working if the character using it closes their eyes.

 

[Ashtagon]

My personal take on it (and this may or may not be a house rule; but it is how I rule it) is that you can attempt to use hips anytime, anyplace. Whether it works against any particular individual or not depends on whether or not that individual perceives the space you are in as having dim illumination (nb. I prefer to call it "dim illumination", to distinguish from situations which merely require "a shadow to be present"). It is perfectly possible for it to work against some targets who are present and fail against others.

Whether or not you see yourself as being in dim illumination is not relevant, unless for some odd reason you are trying to hide from yourself. Your own visual senses won't affect whether it works against anyone else present.

Suppose I am successfully hiding from a human in a dimly-lit room and an elf (or dwarf) walks in. Their superior vision means I am in an area of bright illumination as they perceive it. For them, the hips is irrelevant, because they see me as being in an area with bright illumination, and hips requires dim illumination. But their ability to see right through it has no effect on the human who was present; that human continues to fail to see me, because his normal vision means he perceives me as being in an area of dim illumination.

----

Going back to my torch...

Consider this diagram:

TBBDDVVVVWWWWWWWWWWWWW

T - torch
B - bright light
D - dim illumination
V - darkness
W - darkness

For a human, B is bright light, D is dim light, and both V and W are total darkness.

An elf can see areas marked V as if it were dim light. And yet by your interpretation it is total darkness, which common sense tells me is a total lack of light, which should make any sight impossible. Clearly, there is something different about the light levels in V and W, which elves can detect but humans cannot. If they are both simply "total darkness" and that's that, why do they behave differently for elves and other low-light vision races?

 

[Abraxas]

My personal take on it (and this may or may not be a house rule; but it is how I rule it) is that you can attempt to use hips anytime, anyplace. Whether it works against any particular individual or not depends on whether or not that individual perceives the space you are in as having dim illumination (nb. I prefer to call it "dim illumination", to distinguish from situations which merely require "a shadow to be present"). It is perfectly possible for it to work against some targets who are present and fail against others.

-snip the rest-

You do realize how difficult your interpretation makes it to use or even adjudicate this ability right?

The simplest way to have it operate, that violates no rules, is to use the rules for light sources as given to determine where dim illumination starts and stops and don't modify it by the observer.
The power doesn't care who the observer is.
Then you don't have to have a convoluted explanation why a dwarf or elf shadowdancer can use the power but it can't be used on him when under identical lighting conditions.

If an intelligent talking cat and I are standing next to a light shining down a long dark hall - of course the point at which I would say it is total darkness is different than where the cat would say it is total darkness - that doesn't change the amount of actual light reaching said point. A device that required x lumens of light to function will cease to function in that hallway regardless of who is looking down that hallway - and if that device can make itself disappear, it will disappear/appear at exactly the same point every time - also regardless of who is looking down that hallway.

So, other than that - I give up. You win.

Play what you like.

 

[N'raac]

Emphasis mine.

Being able to see in the dark does not give you the ability to automatically detect creatures 'hidden' in shadows. For all intents and purposes, HIPS breaks the 'line of sight' of the viewer (just as well as running around a corner does) and as such cannot be detected as if they were Invisible.

If HiPS created an invisibility effect, rather than an ability to use Stealth, I would be more inclined to agree. I concur with your assessment that HiPS allows the Shadowdancer to break the viewer's line of sight, thus removing the direct observation which would otherwise prevent use of Stealth.

However, if it removes this by placing shadows that Darkvision can typically penetrate in the way, then there is no reason that the Darkvision user would be prevented from continuing that direct observation, preventing Stealth, any more than being 50' away would allow a character now in total darkness to use Stealth to hide from an opponent with 60' Darkvision.

Again, we come back to how the Shadowdancer ability functions to assess how that ability interacts with Darkvision.

Exactly, the mechanics define how the ability works in the game.

No, the mechanics define how use of the ability is resolved in game. The mechanics of HiPS do not say "the character becomes undetectable". They say

A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Technically, the rules say the stealth skill can be used even when observed, and does not actually link that to being within 10' of dim light. To me, the second sentence mitigates that by adding the clarification that the Shadowdancer can "hide herself from view" - not fade from sight, or become invisible, but hide herself, and the caveat that this requires dim light within 10 feet. Finally, it is stated that the shadowdancer cannot hide in her own shadow.

To me, the ability is poorly phrased. I don't think your own shadow is dim light. It is a shadow. The ability would certainly benefit from being better defined, as the extent of debate on this subject makes clear. That better definition would assist in assessing the impact of Darkvision (ideally resolving the issue explicitly), exactly what the Shadowdancer does to achieve this result (fade from view, cloud men's minds, manipulate the stuff of shadows), perhaps whether shadows, rather than just dim light, are of assistance, what dim light means in view of the low light vision issue, whether there is a requirement to move, or to use an action since

Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action.

The only example of stealth not combined with movement is the Sniping action, which does require a move action.

If you want HiPS to not work agaisnt darkvision, write the rule for it so it doesn't work against darkvision. As it is written right now however, darkvision doesn't defeat the ability.

As it is written right now, it allows Stealth to be used even if the user is under direct observation. If Darkvision would otherwise defeat that Stealth, then HiPS will not change that. HiPS only allows you to use Stealth in a condition where Stealth is not normally effective.

But with your "pulling shadows from across the room" implementation, the opponent knows pretty much where the shadowdancer is because there's a great big visible shadow following her around.

Again, this comes back to what the Shadowdancer is using to

hide herself from view in the open

, which seems an inherently contradictory statement. Someone suggested this ability is a victim of poor editing in the past. I have to agree.

By the RAW the requirement to use stealth normally is having cover or concealment - so unless the stealthy character creates a distraction to cross an open area he does need something to provide cover/concealment while sneaking up to or past someone. Now, if you are willing to drop that requirement for the common rogue, why do you insist on adding a restriction that doesn't exist for the supernatural shadowdancer?

Here we go again...

You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill covers hiding and moving silently.

No reference to any need for cover or concealment.

Check

Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

Still no reference to cover or concealment being required. Section on size modifiers omitted.

If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

Here we finally see cover or concealment mentioned. It is in the context of negating being observed preventing you from using stealth. Getting to cover or concealment, or distracting the observer, gives you the opportunity to use Stealth, effectively negating that direct observation.

As a note: in 3.0 there were actual rules for maintaining stealth when the character didn't have cover/concealment for his entire path of travel.

Cover and Stealth Checks: You can use cover to make a Stealth check. Without cover, you usually need concealment (see below) to make a Stealth check.

"Usually" does not mean "always".

Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.

Can't hide behind the other guy. OK. Improved cover (not quoted) provides a bonus.

Concealment and Stealth Checks: You can use concealment to make a Stealth check. Without concealment, you usually need cover to make a Stealth check.

Again, "usually" is not "always".

So someone who just fades from sight isn't evocative? It would sure freak the heck out of me.

Sounds more like "invisible" than Stealth to me. Thinking on that, why does HiPS allow a Shadowdancer who is being directly observed by a bat-like race's sonar to use Stealth? I would suggest it does not - the assumption is that he is directly being observed by sight, and dim light, shadows or even fading entirely from view would not prevent that sonar continuing to register the fellow. Yet, by strict RAW, sonar is baffled by this ability. More evidence it needs fleshing out and interpretation. Anyway...

It doesn't let you BEGIN to use stealth - it lets you use the stealth skill, period, under circumstances that normally would not allow it. The other fellow doesn't have an ability that lets him use stealth AT ALL while being observed.

Once you have made successful use of Stealth, you are no longer being observed. You have evaded observation. All HiPS does is gets you out of being observed so you can use your Stealth. Now, perhaps this comes back to "stealth is typically used with movement", so the actual affect should be the shadows reaching out to engulf the Shadowdancer and, when they clear, he is gone. The shadows allow use of Stealth, which the wise Shadowdancer would use to move to an area where he can use Stealth normally. The fact that he has been removed from direct observation allows him the opportunity to use his Stealth, but if he just stays where he was standing before, it won't do him much good. Still a further elaboration on the words of HiPS, but also the fact that

Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action.

The more I see this, the more it implies stealth without movement requires a separate action.

Nope. But it doesn't say that the shadowdancer uses the area of dim illumintaion to provide concealment either.

Here's a simple question - if the ability said, "while in areas of dim illumination the shadowdancer can use stealth even while being observed and with no cover" would you rule that darkvision foils the ability?

Here we come to the question posed below - what does low light vision do? Or, more to the point, is this dim illumination from the perspective of:

(a) The character using Stealth (the hider);
(b) The character attempting to find the hider (the seeker);
(c) Some objective third party measure (for example, it's always dim light as a human would perceive dim light)

If the Shadowdancer is using shadows as concealment, and the seeker can see through the shadows, then the seeker should have no difficulty continuing to perceive the Shadowdancer.

I'd be OK with a ruling that "The Shadowdancer's use of HiPS to confound a direct observer binds the shadows tightly enough to confuse even Darkvision, providing the opportunity for stealth to be used while the Darkvision user is momentarily unable to observe the Shadowdancer." Add in "Creatures observing the Shadowdancer using other senses are not affected by the Shadowdancer's HiPS ability."

To the initial question,

A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself.

Darkvision is not mentioned here either. Would you hold that Darkvision can only see through absolute darkness, and not through shadows, such that a Darkvision user holding a torch can see perfectly with normal vision to 20', and from 40' to 60' can again see perfectly, this time with Darkvision, but is confused by the dim lighting from 20' to 40', such that he cannot directly observe a person in that area and they may use Stealth? A reminder that

The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.

That suggests to me that Darkvision should be no less effective in dim lighting.

If he gets behind his adversary, and is still within 10 ft of a non personal shadow, he can remain hidden until the Anti-magic field is cast. Once it is cast, he can no longer use HiPS or use stealth because HiPS is supernatural and he has no cover/concealment - he would automatically be spotted. There are no facing rules in the game - it's a simplification that has it's own problems - and I would happily house rule exceptions. However, I would admit that they were indeed houserules and not what the RAW says.

Again, the RAW does not state that use of stealth always requires cover or concealment. The discussion of Surprise states that

Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.

. I would suggest the determination of awareness of a person sneaking up behind you appropriately requires a perception roll. This is especially so outside of combat (ie when you are not consciously attempting to minimize blind spots).

It is a lot more like invisibility - it's a supernatural ability - it's magic. The only reason he can use the stealth skill is because of the supernatural ability - once the conditions for the supernatural ability to be used are no longer present he can no longer benefit from it.

"It's magic" does not automatically mean "it's invisibility". This is at least as much reading words into the ability as anything you have accused of same. The only reason he was prevented from using Stealth is that he was under direct observation. HiPS enables him to break that direct observation, without the usual requirement of either distraction or use of cover or concealment included in the Stealth skill, enabling the skill to be used. Once the hider has been able to use Stealth, he cannot be "observed" until he is again Perceived by the seeker.

Why not change the description of Magic missile to bolts of blue shoot out of your fingertips and unerringly strike your chosen target. No need to list the mechanics, the DM will tell me what constitutes a target, how much damage it does, and what range it has.

Neither mechanics nor concept can be removed without damaging the game. So what?

I want the description to match the mechanics of the ability.

To find common ground, I suggest that the mechanics and description of the ability should be consistent. It is inconsistencies and unexplained aspects of one or both which create the need for rules interpretations. Where the issues are explicitly stated, deviation from same is a house rule.

It's also miles better than, well darkvision just foils it because I say so.

The determination of whether darkvision is or is not effective should be consistent with the manner in which the ability functions. Mechanically, darkvision is never affected by lighting conditions. As such, any ability which depends on using lighting conditions against the observer logically fail when used against an observer with darkvision.

You seem to be approaching this from the viewpoint that any ambiguity should be resolved in favour of one ability, HiPS, to the detriment of another ability, Darkvision, as though this is in the interests of fairness and equity. But fairness and equity to whom? If the scenario is a PC Shadowdancer seeking to hide from a group of vile NPC Orcs, clearly you are resolving the ambiguity in favour of the PC. However, the scenario could just as easily be a villainous organization of Shadowdancers being opposed by a team of Dwarven and Half-Orcish PC's - now your ruling is resolved in favour of the DM's NPC's. My preference is to seek an objective solution.

I continue to think the answer lies in determining exactly what the Shadowdancer's HiPS does. If it simply allows him the benefit of dim lighting to permit stealth checks, even when he is up to 10' away from that dim lighting, then it should be resolved in the same manner as one would resolve the same stealth ability for a hider lacking HiPS, but standing in dim lighting. If it draws the shadow from his surroundings, a case could be made that he can create a momentary "deeper darkness" which confounds even Darkvision (as this is a Supernatural ability, and many magical forms of Darkness foil even Darkvision). We could even say he uses the nearby shadows to power a chameleonlike ability, or a power to Cloud Men's Minds so they cannot perceive him (further and further afield from the Shadowdancer flavour, but valid approaches). All of these are house rules - there is a need for some form of house rule to resolve the ambiguity in the RAW.

A very relevant related question which completely sidesteps how darkvision works...

Suppose the sahdowthingy dude is 30 feet from our heroes, who are using a torch for illumination. The human has normal vision, so at that distance the torch provides shadowy illumination. The elf hero has low-light vision, so for him, the sahdowthingy dude is in an area of bright illumination.

What happens when sahdowthingy dude uses his hips? And how would his own low-light vision (or lack of it) affect the question of whether shadows are present for him to use?

You are absolutely correct - by the RAW the human couldn't use HiPS in total darkness - that is one of the situations that I would houserule differently (and I would out right state I am houseruling) but the house rule would be in favor of the character using the ability.

Does it matter which of the Shadowdancer and the Darkvision user is a player character? Any rule that favours the character using one of the two abilities is to the disfavour of the other, so I don't think that provides any basis for deciding which ability wins, or should win.

BTW, if we rely on the fact "dim light" allows stealth and does not say Darkvision spoils that, then clearly darkness has no similar effect.

That being said, the level of illumination is a constant - it is determined by the type of light source. Different creatures may be able to see differently with a given light source but that doesn't change the light source.

Is the Shadowdancer a human, who perceives dim light 20' to 40' from a torch, or an elf who perceives dim light 40' - 80' from a torch?

Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.

I'm again coming back to a crying need for rules that address the impact of dim lighting on Stealth. Can a human (ignoring HiPS for the moment) standing 30' away from an Elf with a torch staring right at him use Stealth as the Human is in dim light, or will it fail because the elf sees him in normal light?

Similarly, is an elven Shadowdancer 15' from a torch 5' away from dim light (to a human) or 25' away from dim light (to his own perceptions)?

By your logic HiPS starts and stops based on whoever happens to walk into the room and how acute their vision. It also causes the HiPS ability to work differently for different characters. A human could use it within 10ft of a lit torch while an elf would have to 30 ft from the same torch. It also stops working if the character using it closes their eyes.

HiPS allows the user to use Stealth based on a lighting condition. The impact of a lighting condition depends on the acuity of vision. The radius of each type of light is doubled for characters with low light vision, so an elf 25' from a torch is in bright light for himself, but dim light for a human. He is more than 10' away from dim light as an elf, but within dim light were he human. I think you dismiss the issue too lightly. You could certainly rule "dim light as perceived by a human", "dim light as perceived by the user of HiPS" or "dim light as perceived by the observer", but each of the three adds words to the actual RAW, so would appear to be a house rule by your definition. The ambiguity of the rules means any interpretation must add to the RAW, becoming a house rule by your definition.

 

[N'raac]

You do realize how difficult your interpretation makes it to use or even adjudicate this ability right?

The simplest way to have it operate, that violates no rules, is to use the rules for light sources as given to determine where dim illumination starts and stops and don't modify it by the observer.

It is simplest. Whether it violates no rules is a matter of interpretation. It seems that, for the gnome (the elf flittered off - they're capricious), you are substantially reducing the radius of each level of light since the rules say:

Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.

Whether ease of adjudication is more important than equity to all types of vision is a question any given group needs to answer for itself. And that answer appears to be a house rule, as the RAW does not define a by the books methodology.

The power doesn't care who the observer is.
Then you don't have to have a convoluted explanation why a dwarf or elf shadowdancer can use the power but it can't be used on him when under identical lighting conditions.

The manner in which the power operates conceptually should be consistent with the manner in which it operates mechanically. The lack of clear definition of either in the RAW makes it impossible to assess which interpretation follows, or does not follow, RAW or even RAI. The fact that no official interpretation exists leads me to believe the designers have no conclusion in this regard either. A definition is needed for each game, since none exists overall.

If an intelligent talking cat and I are standing next to a light shining down a long dark hall - of course the point at which I would say it is total darkness is different than where the cat would say it is total darkness - that doesn't change the amount of actual light reaching said point. A device that required x lumens of light to function will cease to function in that hallway regardless of who is looking down that hallway - and if that device can make itself disappear, it will disappear/appear at exactly the same point every time - also regardless of who is looking down that hallway.

This seems a very scientific evaluation of a magical ability. It again requires a determination of how the power functions in concept to apply mechanics best realizing that vision (no pun intended). If we assume the HiPS ability engulfs the user in sufficient shadow to allow him to escape observation by any vision relying on light, this seems easily adjudicated, and favours Darkvision over LL Vision or HiPS. If we add that this Supernatural ability focuses the shadows to the extent they are equal to magical darkness in foiling Darkvision, then HiPS wins, and Darkvision also loses. Anything that varies the shadows depending on the race of the Shadowdancer seems less than desirable, and obfuscating all vision types seems a reasonable result. Or maybe he uses shadowstuff to create a distraction elsewhere, so all involved momentarily stop looking directly at the Shadowdancer, who uses the opportunity to escape their observation through Stealth. However acute your vision may be, it's not helpful if you look away for a moment - Stealth skill determines how effectively the hider may use that momentary distraction.

The tradeoff, Mr. Shadowdancer, may be a requirement that the ability be used as part of a Move action including the Stealth check, and it would be wise to move to an area where your Stealth can be sustained, as remaining in bright light when the shadow dissipates is not overly prudent.

 

[Ashtagon]

/wanders off to crate a character whose hide in plain sight power is activated by swivelling his hips just so, causing everyone around to look away in embarrassment.