You're doing what? Surprising the DM

[El Mahdi]

deleted

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

There are cool surprises, and then there are "You're trying to be a jerk" surprises. I know my players long enough to tell the difference. Anything that's not trying to be a jerk usually goes over really, really well because it's fun. I've referenced this before, I had a player pull an Enveloping Cocoon + Baleful Polymorph on a big bad boss to turn it into a kitten. The long battle I prepared for was cut very short, and the party started collecting pets as a way to resolve encounters. Still fun.

 

[Hussar]

I have a reputation for surprising my DMs with tactics or solutions for solving problems. Not all DMs appreciate the surprises.

So where do you,as a DM or player, draw the line between "being innovative" and "ambushing the DM"?

Example: Facing a Baselisk, I used Dust of Disappearance, on the Baselisk himself. His Gaze attack requires that you be able to see his eyes, after all. Thus began a debate about whether or not there was or should be a Save against that, when the target is unwilling.

Now for me, the downside has become that I have to warn the DMs, well in advance, of my intended tactics, and intended uses for any magic item my character wants to acquire.

My character recently tried to get the Alchemical recipe for Pixie Dust (Arms & Equipment Guide). He didn't have any specific use in mind though, so I couldn't give the advance warning. The DM, suspecting an ambush in the offing, declined to allow it.

So again, how do you handle this sort of thing as a DM, or as a player?

Just as a note, not sure why this provoked a debate:

Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks.

Pretty cut and dried.

Seems like a pretty cool use of a rather expensive resource.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

It's not always so much whether it's rules-legal as sometimes "I put a lot of effort into this and you just bypassed it easily. I feel like an idiot now, and I don't like that." Alternately it can be "I wanted this to be fun and you screwed it up."

I played a cleric with the Air domain one time and the DM put us in an arena with a bunch of fog. I of course cast Control Winds on it to disperse it, and boy did the DM give me an evil eye. So I backed off from the full possible power of it being continuous for 10 minutes per level (which was 100 total minutes IIRC) and had a range and radius of 40 feet per level... Yeah, it was the entire arena area that I could have dispersed the fog with.

The sad part is it was entirely natural to cast that spell, at least from my and my character's views. Got fog? Clear it. But I backed down because the DM didn't look like he could handle it.

So basically it comes down to whether the DM can look at the situation and admit "Alright, you got me. I didn't anticipate that, so well done for you. Just be careful about it, because I'm only human, okay?"

 

[Stormonu]

Being surprised by the players can be one of the joys of playing D&D - but, just as from the player's side, it's only fun if it isn't done maliciously.

Also, I hate when it becomes SOP by the players (used over and over), that drains the fun out of the creativity, and makes it mundane.

 

[Jacob Marley]

My DMing philosophy is to present my players with challenges and then be indifferent as to how easy or difficult it is to overcome them. So, when my players find a creative way to make an otherwise difficult encounter easy, then I applaud their efforts. They found an easy way to solve the challenge; they deserve their reward for doing so.

 

[Greenfield]

Okay, let me throw an example I've mentioned before: It was late in the game session and we'd wasted a lot of time because of a very badly drawn overland map. We (the players) were tired.

We have to enter and reduce a fortified structure. The Bard (my character) approached the front gate under Greater Invisibility, laid a hand on it and used G'Elsewhere Chant. For those unfamiliar with the spell, it teleports a creature or object 10 D10 feet in a random direction, guaranteed to land safely. People get a Will save, unattended objects don't. The spell fails to set any size limit on "object".

The DM was unhappy, since he had a lot of prepared trouble for the group for when they tried to go over the wall. He said that the gate was "attended" (not unreasonable that someone could be holding onto it, in a world where magic exists), but the guy failed the Save and the front gate of his castle vanished.

There are a couple of different spells with limits on "object", some by weight per caster level, some limited based on what the character can lift. Some have a straight, fixed limit (Mage Hand, for example.) Some even have limits based on volume (Shrink Item comes to mind). Invisibility limits by length, if the item is carried when the spell is cast, or by whether the object can be hidden beneath (invisible) clothing, if the item is picked up once the spell is in effect. This spell doesn't list a limit, or even hint at one.

My character got a disfiguring curse for offending the spirit of the rules.

I wasn't trying to be a jerk. I was trying to make an intimidating display of power for the people inside, hoping to force at least some of the people to surrender, hoping to shorten (read "end") what had been a very long and frustrating adventure. (That DM really needs to learn that two squiggle lines drawn, small scale, on the map right in front of him do not communicate well that the castle is on a peninsula backed against the sea, with a swamp flanking the approach and a moat. Particularly when previously the place had been inland with hills visible behind it, and a broad road that lead across an open field towards the gate.)

But for whatever reason he wasn't prepared for that particular use of the spell, or for such an abrupt breach in his defenses.

Now, with all of that being said, how would you have taken a surprise like that?

 

[Jacob Marley]

Now, with all of that being said, how would you have taken a surprise like that?

I am unfamiliar with that particular spell, but, assuming your description of it is correct, I'd be fine with what you did. You, however, may not be fine with the outcome. Exactly what would occur would depend on the contents of the keep, and my notes on the morale of the inhabitants modified by a couple of quick rolls on the Mythic: Game Master Emulator Fate Table. Given that it was late in the session, I would have probably called the game for the evening and re-prepped the challenge using Mythic:GME to determine how the various inhabitants would react to such a dramatic event. Depending on the results from the Mythic:GME tables, you might get the result you hoped for: some/all flee. You might get a result that you didn't intend: instead of five little fights you just caused one big fight. Either way, it would be awesome!

 

[dragonfriend7738]

But for whatever reason he wasn't prepared for that particular use of the spell, or for such an abrupt breach in his defenses.

Now, with all of that being said, how would you have taken a surprise like that?

I'd have given the party a suprise round, and then had you meet with the forces in the courtyard. (Call a smoke break if time is needed to rearrange the opponents locations.) If you had attempted diplomacy/intimidation after ripping the door down, I'd have given you a circumstance bonus, but other than that, roll with the punches.

If I had an interesting encounter on the walls, well, you've got xd4 rounds before the encounter is coming to meet you as they are relocating themselves from the ramparts to the courtyard.

As for the loophole in the rules, I'd let you get away with it this time, but I'd then sit down with the spellcasters and get a consensus on what an appropriate weight limit for such a spell would be, so as to houserule a fix to a possibly broken feature.

Just my way of thinking, anyway.

 

[pemerton]

I played a cleric with the Air domain one time and the DM put us in an arena with a bunch of fog. I of course cast Control Winds on it to disperse it, and boy did the DM give me an evil eye. So I backed off from the full possible power of it being continuous for 10 minutes per level (which was 100 total minutes IIRC) and had a range and radius of 40 feet per level... Yeah, it was the entire arena area that I could have dispersed the fog with.

The sad part is it was entirely natural to cast that spell, at least from my and my character's views. Got fog? Clear it. But I backed down because the DM didn't look like he could handle it.

We have to enter and reduce a fortified structure. The Bard (my character) approached the front gate under Greater Invisibility, laid a hand on it and used G'Elsewhere Chant. For those unfamiliar with the spell, it teleports a creature or object 10 D10 feet in a random direction, guaranteed to land safely. People get a Will save, unattended objects don't. The spell fails to set any size limit on "object".

The DM was unhappy, since he had a lot of prepared trouble for the group for when they tried to go over the wall. He said that the gate was "attended" (not unreasonable that someone could be holding onto it, in a world where magic exists), but the guy failed the Save and the front gate of his castle vanished.

<snip>

I wasn't trying to be a jerk. I was trying to make an intimidating display of power for the people inside, hoping to force at least some of the people to surrender, hoping to shorten (read "end") what had been a very long and frustrating adventure.

<snip>

But for whatever reason he wasn't prepared for that particular use of the spell, or for such an abrupt breach in his defenses.

Now, with all of that being said, how would you have taken a surprise like that?

I'm quite surprised by both these examples. It's never occurred to me that someone would GM a game with powerful, open-ended magical effects (Control Winds, teleport object etc) and then get cut when PCs with those abilities use them!

At present I GM 4e, and so it has a bit less of this sort of stuff, though as the PCs level their rituals get more powerful. But for nearly 20 years I GMed Rolemaster which is full of these sorts of effects. They're part and parcel of that sort of system - if you don't want them, change your system for heaven's sake!

As for the loophole in the rules, I'd let you get away with it this time, but I'd then sit down with the spellcasters and get a consensus on what an appropriate weight limit for such a spell would be, so as to houserule a fix to a possibly broken feature.

Now that works for me. Even in 4e, but especially in Rolemaster, a table conference to resolve a problematic rules element is fine. But to my mind, at leat, that's quite different from the GM taking it out on the player for using his/her PC's magical resources!