You're doing what? Surprising the DM

I wonder how many pages of discussion could have been saved if an accurate account of exactly what happened was first given instead of later.

A lot of them. A significant number of the arguments are owed to people (me included) providing counter-examples of how a hypothetical wilderness expedition could be relevant to play and interesting because the exact details of the initial scenario were vague. Each of those counter examples then led to people focusing on particular parts of the example as being uninteresting, which lead to people providing counter examples of how that could be interesting and relevant to the player focused goals/story as well depending on what that goal or story might be. Along side that we got into an argument about whether we should skip a scene which might be interesting to hypothetical players, but not to the one real player (Hussar), and how table conflicts between players should be resolved. But we probably wouldn't even talked about that if we hadn't initially been led to discuss in the abstract how to make wilderness travel interesting for players that don't have an exploration agenda (like Hussar). There has also been a great deal of confusion because some people are taking one of a long list of possible resolutions or methodologies as being the one definitive way that the person who suggested it as a possibility would do things, rather than as an example of an alternate resolution that could be justified on a case by case basis. This tends to lead to lots of straw men where the person grabs that suggestions, transports it to a wildly different counter-example of their own inventing, and uses it to show just how different their style of play is from the person they are quoting because in that particular case they'd run their game differently than the poster would have run it .... in a completely different situation.

Proof by exhaustion probably woldn't have been anyone's preferred mode of discussion had we started with anything else to talk about.

At one point, I even set out to write a long post on scene framing where I discussed the strengths and weaknesses of all the different broad approaches you could use and when you might favor one over another. But then I realized, "This is just crazy." It was like trying to write a definitive tutorial on the art of DMing. The more I thought about it, the more complex and book like in form it became.
 

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Now, do you think "wanted criminals" counts as middle of the road?

Because I expect the population of folks that are willing to get involved in high-risk, violent affairs for money to be rather weighted towards the unsavory end of the culture in question. In D&D terms, Good and Lawful characters are less likely to be involved with such shenanigans. So, "middle of the road" recruiting will risk failing to ferret out all the nasty folks.

But, also, why "at best"? Why do I get poor results when I want to skim over a scene?

Well, somehow we are slipping from my "middle of the road" to your "poor". But, for sake of argument - in D&D terms again, you're trying to Take 10 on your recruitment effort. That's pretty much the definition of middle-of-the-road performance on the task, is it not? Unless you're supposed to be really awesome at the task, the results are apt to be less-than-stellar.

Or, if you prefer, reverse the question for a moment - why do you, as a player, expect good results when you don't put thought, effort, or time into a task? You want something for nothing?


This seems to imply that a game adjudicated on the basis of "say yes or roll the dice" - ie only focus on those challenges that are built up around player cues and player-driven story momentum - must necessarily be middle-of-the-road.

Setting aside how "say yes or roll the dice" seems to mean something different to me, no, that's not it at all. Quite the opposite - if you're focusing on challenges built up around player cues, should not success in the game be based on their activity in those challenges? If so, then those things we are not focusing on should not confer particular advantage to the PCs! On average the results of things you skim over should be of no net help or hindrance. Note that is on average - you want to see some variation in the results, if only for sake of color. That means, sometimes you'll get someone scummy among your henchmen. Other times, you'll get someone who is more actively useful, and it comes out in the wash.
 

A lot of them. A significant number of the arguments are owed to people (me included) providing counter-examples of how a hypothetical wilderness expedition could be relevant to play and interesting because the exact details of the initial scenario were vague.

I'd take a counter-argument here. Hussar decided to dismiss the scene from the outset, without any knowledge (I assume) of what lay ahead. He was interested in getting the "whereever the next goal is", and was not interested in playing out anything in between. If the voyage across the desert had actually turned into a boring slog, then that would be the appropriate time to suggest, to the group, that this aspect of the scenario isn't very engaging to me - is it something that the rest of you (other players and GM) see a reason to play out, or might we skip ahead past the travelogue?

We end up speculating on what might be in the wasteland because the player made the call, not that nothing could possibly be of interest in the wasteland, but that he was uninterested in playing out anything that was not "the location at the end of the travel", and the GM (and other players) should immediately have acquiesced to his preferences in this regard.

Because I expect the population of folks that are willing to get involved in high-risk, violent affairs for money to be rather weighted towards the unsavory end of the culture in question. In D&D terms, Good and Lawful characters are less likely to be involved with such shenanigans. So, "middle of the road" recruiting will risk failing to ferret out all the nasty folks.

Agreed. Ultimately, the PC's are sending out want ads for people willing to engage in assisting their meting out violence and vengeance. What kind of people do you think are likely to apply?

Setting aside how "say yes or roll the dice" seems to mean something different to me, no, that's not it at all. Quite the opposite - if you're focusing on challenges built up around player cues, should not success in the game be based on their activity in those challenges? If so, then those things we are not focusing on should not confer particular advantage to the PCs! On average the results of things you skim over should be of no net help or hindrance. Note that is on average - you want to see some variation in the results, if only for sake of color. That means, sometimes you'll get someone scummy among your henchmen. Other times, you'll get someone who is more actively useful, and it comes out in the wash.

And this is how the typical "shopping expedition" plays out. You spend the average price, established by the PHB (no chance of a negotiated discount, and no possibility of being overcharged), and you get an average commodity (not a brittle spear that breaks on the first attack, but nothing special either). So maybe the problem is that we need to establish a "standard price" for which a L1 warrior will agree to risk his life for a day at your behest, a standard skill set and a standard level of loyalty for that L1 warrior, and if you want more, you work for it.
 

Right now you are asking to not merely for the ability to hire mercenaries but to
<snip> dictate the game's scene framing.
Hussar is requesting that the GM use his/her scene framing authority to frame interesting scenes. As per my quote upthread from Ron Edwards, he is asking the GM to take suggestions. I don't see how that is a controversial thing to do!

If the choices the players make have no consequences, and no impact on where the game goes next, they didn’t really have any choices at all – they are just railroaded along between scenes, with their choices having no bearing on whether they succeed or fail, or how effective they are at achieving their goals.
This is a curious argument against the GM framing scenes in response to player priorities rather than the GM's preconception of how things should go!

You approach this from the perspective that it is impossible the GM could design the desert crossing scenario to be relevant and related to the larger ongoing scenario.
No I'm not. Rather, I'm taking Hussar at his word that his GM did not do this, and that the players in that scenario were not interested in it being done either.

You seem to confuse “player-driven” with the GM laying out a roadmap of every step the players might consider taking and providing instant gratification to every player whim or desire.
By "player driven" I mean following player cues so as to maintain interest, engagement and momentum. A sure sign that things have gone wrong is that, even years later, a player remembers the episode as boring and exemplary of bad GMing!

BTW, the GM rolling dice for 6 spearmen vs the Grell is at risk of falling into that trap as well.
Why would the GM be rolling?

80 minutes of great, in-character role playing action that furthered the goal of obtaining the mercenary support, developed more ties with that weapon supplier, established connections within the city watch and possibly set up a future adventure related to that criminal. What a great break between the grind of a dungeon crawl with nothing but constant, repetitive tactical combat scenes.
I can think of dozens, maybe hundreds, of scenarios I would rather play through or GM than what you describe here. And none of them involves "grinding through a dungeon crawl" - and I don't know on what basis you are describing Hussar's play in that way.

At the same time, I don’t think the game is nearly as interesting if the PC’s live in a vacuum with a tattered backdrop, rather than a living world, in which to adventure. There’s a balance to be struck, and “skip along to the next scene” doesn’t strike it
Are you describing your preferences here? Fine. Are you telling me that I should share them? Well sorry, I don't.

Maybe you are the only ones who project that approach on every situation with the assumption you will be gaming with a poor GM.
I'm not assuming that the time-teleportation GM I described upthread engaged in bad GMing. I know it - I was there. Likewise Hussar. He is not making his assumptions. He is reporting his experiences of bad GMing. I don't really understand why his testimony is treated as suspect, and the GM - about whom we know nothing other than Hussar's report that he provided a boring session - is being put forward as some paragon of the GMing art.

You've also seen zero evidence that wasn't what he was doing. You have evidence that a single player at the table didn't see the relevance and wanted to skip ahead.
For me, that [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] thought it was an irrelevant distraction is good evidence that it was. Hussar has stated that it was bad GMing, and what he's described is utterly consistent with patterns of bad GMing that I'm quite familiar with, and that I attribute to certain tendencies in RPG advice and practice dating from the mid-to-late 80s and continuing through the 90s. Two basic features of that advice are (1) an assumption that combat is antithetical to roleplaying, and (2) an assumption that if only the amount of GM narration of setting and backstory were to increase, and player immersion in that narration to increase, the game would be more rewarding, more "story-like" and a "truer" RPG experience.

Oddly enough, this advice was often given in the context of games that have no serious action resolution mechanics other than for combat. But that also leads to a connection between (1) and (2): the absence of non-combat action resolution means that moving away from combat is also moving into terrain in which GM narration and, to a significant extent, GM fiat is the sole determinant of action resolution and hence of plot development.
 
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Ok, let's go back to the hiring the mercenaries example. We hire the criminal and don't get caught. We get into the grell, dispatch the grell and the mercenaries go on their merry way.

So, is the DM going to simply let all this go? All that "interesting NPC background" just gets left out and we carry on? After all, since the players don't actually know any of this, they don't care. So, again, why did we bother spending all that time talking to the NPC's?

Somehow I highly, highly doubt that any DM that is going to go through all the trouble developing this level of background is going to just let it go because the players decided not to pick up on it. It's far more likely, IMO, that the DM is going to force the players to interact with this stuff.

And, N'raac, if everyone is having a great time talking to the NPC's, then obviously my point isn't that we should cut it out.
 

I posit that appearing in the middle of a desert on the Abyss hundreds of miles away from your expected destination does in fact count as genre-relevant macro-pressure.

I think you and I are might be using "genre" differently here. Are you putting forth the premise that that D&D 1e, 2e and 3e (with punitive spell effects such as "off-kilter" travel spells, haste-aging effects, Machiavellian "Wish" interpretation, and brutal SoD/SoS spell effects and traps) is genre unto itself? D&D as D&D? I consider most of that system, playstyle and technique; operational, serial world exploration, coupled with causal logic task resolution/process-sim, coupled with rulings instead of rules (with competing, contemporaneous sub-systems that may lead to DM force as required in the stead of murky, inconsistent mechanical resolution) and sometimes assumed, gamist, adversarial DMing. Again, playstyle rather than genre. I consider D&D to be a mashup of several pulp elements/sub-genres:

1 - GoT type Grim and Gritty "Realism"
2 - Murderhobos/Sword and Sorcery/Black Company Dark Fantasy
3 - Action Adventure Wild West meets Star Wars meets Indiana Jones
4 - High Fantasy Lord of the Rings
5 - Gonzo Final Fantasy and Comic Bookey type stuff

Maybe you're not talking "D&D as D&D" but rather you're queuing up 2 there as "genre-relevant macro-pressure" in this case?
 
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Somehow I highly, highly doubt that any DM that is going to go through all the trouble developing this level of background is going to just let it go because the players decided not to pick up on it. It's far more likely, IMO, that the DM is going to force the players to interact with this stuff.

The definition of running a sandbox is the willingness to prep more material than you actually intend to or can use. If you are afraid to discard stuff, then you aren't running a sandbox.
 

No, reading through your framing, I don't really have any problems with that. In fact, I'm seeing very little player proactivity, and that might be closer to my worry.

As DM, my bigggest concern on that is that I'd be afraid that the player would see the particular implementation - let's handwave what you are good at and by fiat force you to face something you aren't - as railroady. I'd be afraid of doing things that way without some OOC negotiation with the player, and I'd be afraid that OOC negotiation like that would be a time sink as well as detract from the experience of play. But, if you had high player consent from your players, then I suppose your fine.

As a player, my biggest concern is that it all feels just a little cheesy and gamey to me. I mean granted, this is just a summary of play, but things like the sinkhole swallowing me up at that exact moment would just blow my suspension of disbelief and also cause me to feel (together with the inescapable bang that start this all) that I really had no control over my character or the setting. It feels very much like a game that occurs inside a DM's wacky dream, and not really in a shared narrative space. I'd feel a bit jerked around by DM whim. But that's just a matter of taste I suppose, and it might not be true of how I'd actually experience your session.

I have a lot to say about your position on "railroading", "meaningful decisions", and likely "agency" issues at the heart of your theories. I think before I try to respond though, I'll try to get your take on the below Cortex Plus's MHRP advice on Framing Action Scenes and Presenting the Challenge. I'd like to see where you come out on this. This system is as close to my table agenda and the way I run games as possible so I think its very helpful for clarity. Perhaps if you can read the below and comment on this we may get to the crux of issues that you find anathema to your playstyle (which are embedded in my, @pemerton 's and possibly @Hussar 's playstyles). After you comment, I'll try to compose a response based off of your commentary. If you think it would be helpful, I'll take the time to break out the entirety of the "chase scene" (from (i) GM-framed pressure, to (ii) player decision points, to (iii) mechanical resolution, to (iv) narrative evolution and (v) ultimate scene conclusion) I related above so you can fully determine how your theory of "railroading", "meaningful decisions", and (maybe) "agency" do or do not apply. Let me know.

MHRP OM34 and OM 35

FRAMING ACTION SCENES

If you're the Watcher, you get things started by establishing who is present in a Scene and where. This is called "framing the Scene, and its your chief responsibility in the game-other than playing the bad guys, keeping the doom pool, and rolling opposition dice. You should ask directed questions of the players, encouraging them to respond to something. Rather than asking "Where are you?" try something like, "Are you in the middle of the rank-and-file, or are you with the officers near the rear?" You might even establish a particular fact at the same time: "You're with the officers of the Imperial Force. How did you agree to this position?"

If you're a player, you should allow for some relaxation of control over your hero for this purpose, because after this point everything you do and say is up to you and the roll of the dice. If the Watcher asks you, "How did you agree to this position?" use that as an opportunity to build on the story. You might say, "Cyclops wants to see the big picture, so he's staying back to be sure his tactical genius is put to good use." Or, "Cyclops doesn't trust the Shi'ar officers, so he's staying near them in case they decide to pull a fast one on his team."

PRESENTING THE CHALLENGE

Once you frame a Scene as the Watcher, it's time to present the challenge to the players. Sometimes, this is a villain or mob of bad guys. Other times, it's a family of four trapped in a burning building. You're encouraging the players to think about how they're going to respond to something immediate and exciting. Action Scenes are no place for slow deliberation. Get right to it and present the problem! <snip example>.

As a player, you now have the core situation-or at least the implication of one-laid out in front of you for this Scene. Its time to drop into character, think about what your hero would do in this situation <snip>...you're engaged with the new challenge and ready to go.
 
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