Planescape Do You Care About Planescape Lore?

[Alzrius]

Wait, I've been told repeatedly, again on this page as well, that Planescape did not change anything that came before. It only added to things. That all the flavour in Planescape existed in D&D long before Planescape came along. That Planescape simply clarified and added detail.

Hrm....

Here's a hint to resolve your cognitive dissonance: Defilers & Preservers is a Dark Sun product.

I don't own that, how did they retcon?

I know that in the Spelljammer Spacefarer's Handbook they mention Athas being in a closed crystal sphere, which contradicts the Dark Sun Dragon Kings book.

The sidebars reiterate that Athas's crystal sphere cannot be opened, and assert that trying to get through the Grey to reach the Astral or Ethereal is very hard - basically, you have a large percentage chance (larger for the Astral Plane) of failing, and getting lost in the Grey (at which point you can only return to your point of origin, and not continue towards your destination).

While elemental priests can reach their Inner Plane of worship without trouble, for everyone else, you are most likely going to get stranded in the Gray (which deals, if I remember correctly, Constitution damage) if you want to reach the planes.

 

[Imaro]

You know, not to get into edition-wars (as opposed to setting wars), buuut... I'm finding it a little ironic that Planescape is being brought up as the example of intrusive fluff when alot of 4e's fluff and it's cosmology were not only applied to core but also to the other D&D settings that hadn't had it before.... even if that meant retconning the setting itself so that 4e's fluff and asumptions fit.

Just sayin... shouldn't 4e's fluff be the focus, as opposed to Planescape, if we want to send the designers a clear message that we want less intrusive setting assumptions and fluff... or is this just a smokescreen for planescape setting hate as opposed to a thread about the general principle of expressing that less setting canon and assumptions are better?

 

[Weather Report]

The sidebars reiterate that Athas's crystal sphere cannot be opened, and assert that trying to get through the Grey to reach the Astral or Ethereal is very hard

Ah, so what exactly is the Grey (and The Black), are they similar to the Ethereal (bordering planes, or demi-planes)?

 

[Weather Report]

There is one overarching metaplot I would consider core :
Tharizdun

Why?

 

[Alzrius]

Ah, so what exactly is the Grey (and The Black), are they similar to the Ethereal (bordering planes, or demi-planes)?

That passage makes it pretty clear that, whereas most crystal spheres have a Border Ethereal (which leads past the Color Wall into the Deep Ethereal), Athas's has the Grey instead, which is what makes planar travel so difficult. The Black, by contrast, remains fairly undefined (though it seems to exist in the same metaphysical area, as it's definitely not a demiplane).

 

[Dausuul]

You know, not to get into edition-wars (as opposed to setting wars), buuut... I'm finding it a little ironic that Planescape is being brought up as the example of intrusive fluff when alot of 4e's fluff and it's cosmology were not only applied to core but also to the other D&D settings that hadn't had it before.... even if that meant retconning the setting itself so that 4e's fluff and asumptions fit.

Just sayin... shouldn't 4e's fluff be the focus, as opposed to Planescape, if we want to send the designers a clear message that we want less intrusive setting assumptions and fluff... or is this just a smokescreen for planescape setting hate as opposed to a thread about the general principle of expressing that less setting canon and assumptions are better?

Well, the question is what sort of canon and assumptions we're going to see in 5E. The designers are clearly pulling back from 4E's attempt to rewrite the whole cosmology and shove the World Axis into everything. So there's a legitimate concern that this "pull-back" will result in Planescape (which certainly was rather intrusive in the late 2E era) filling the void.

I'm not overly concerned about that, myself. The impression I get is that the designers are not so much trying to roll back 4E's changes and revert to an earlier state, as they are trying to minimize the setting-specific material that will be in 5E, so you can easily adopt the World Axis or the Great Wheel or whatever floats your boat. The way they're handling deities for clerics is inspired, and I hope to see the same approach taken throughout the core material.

 

[Weather Report]

That passage makes it pretty clear that, whereas most crystal spheres have a Border Ethereal (which leads past the Color Wall into the Deep Ethereal), Athas's has the Grey instead, which is what makes planar travel so difficult. The Black, by contrast, remains fairly undefined (though it seems to exist in the same metaphysical area, as it's definitely not a demiplane).

Very cool, thanks for that, what about the Astral and how it connects to Athas?

Oh, if Athas has no Border Ethereal, does that mean you can't go ethereal (via spell or magic item, etc)?

 

[Weather Report]

The Black, by contrast, remains fairly undefined (though it seems to exist in the same metaphysical area, as it's definitely not a demiplane).

Oh, I just remembered, I believe in 3rd Ed The Black was simply The Plane of Shadow, but of course that was from that 3rd Ed Dragon mag Dark Sun campaign David Noonan wrote, he also made The Grey the Ethereal, so The Black could really be a pocket-dimension tied to Athas?

 

[Alzrius]

Very cool, thanks for that, what about the Astral and how it connects to Athas?

Oh, if Athas has no Border Ethereal, does that mean you can't go ethereal (via spell or magic item, etc)?

You can get to the Astral Plane through the Grey, but it's much harder (only a 5% chance, compared to a 34% chance to reach the Ethereal).

Presumably (I have to go and re-read the book) most Ethereal-based spells and magic items use the Grey instead; I can't recall if there are any specific changes to doing so, though.

Oh, I just remembered, I believe in 3rd Ed The Black was simply The Plane of Shadow, but of course that was from that 3rd Ed Dragon mag Dark Sun campaign David Noonan wrote, he also made The Grey the Ethereal, so The Black could really be a pocket-dimension tied to Athas?

Yeah, I remember that issue; I recall thinking that, if you had to make Athas have its own cosmology, that was "good enough."

The Black, like the Grey, appear to be some sort of dimension/plane tied to Athas, apparently both replacing its Border Ethereal (the Grey seems to mostly fill this in, being the "larger" of the two). It's never stated, but I always wondered if this was why its crystal sphere was impregnable (that or that 11th-level spell from the Forgotten Realms Arcane Age: Empire of Netheril boxed set that seals a crystal sphere).

 

[Oryan77]

or is this just a smokescreen for planescape setting hate

That's what I believe is the true purpose for this thread being created.

It's ok though. Planescape hate is never anything that a fan should get upset about. The reasons people give for hating it are always the same. Either the reasons are understandable: don't like the Blood War, don't like factions, don't like Sigil, don't like the cosmology, don't like the changes it made to fiends & angels. Or, the reasons are laughable: the art sucks (every setting & edition before PS had a lot of art that was way worse, but nobody complains about it), the cant sucks (you can still roleplay your Scottish Dwarf without using any cant).

In any case, it's not like any content has to invade your game if you don't want it to. Those examples are extremely easy to ignore or quickly change to what suits you. I'm not going to blame Greyhawk cause core includes Gnomes and I don't want Gnomes in my game. I'm going to pick and choose what I like from core regardless of what the publishers tell me is core. The core content is always going to change as long as they keep changing editions, and influence is going to come from everywhere. Nobody is forcing you to change with it.