Narrative Space Options for non-spellcasters

[Manbearcat]

@Mike Eagling - good post, though I'm perhaps a bigger Forge fan - discovering the Forge is the single biggest thing that improved my GMing.

But no XP for you, I'm still dry!

Covered.

 

[Manbearcat]

I think this example might be instructive.

Let's take the always scary to conversation 4e Martial Exploit "Come and Get It".

Original version contains an Author's Stance element. Enemies move toward you without a test. There is no action resolution to their moving toward you. You, the player, say the NPCs do and they do. You, the player, scribe the fiction to your genre tastes, fitting or retrofitting your character's motivations to the situation. If you do not and you just move pieces around the board and attack with no regard for the fiction, then you're in Pawn Stance.

WotC D&D 4e PHB1 p80 errata
Come and Get It
You call your opponents toward you and deliver a blow they will never forget.
Encounter

Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Close burst 3
Target: Each enemy you can see in the burst.
Effect: Each target must shift 2 and end adjacent to you, if possible. A target that can't end adjacent to you doesn't move. You can then attack any targets that are adjacent to you (close burst 1).
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.

The errata version can easily be deployed from Actor's Stance as the movement is a contest. People may not like the nature of the contest (martial forced movement as martial mind control as the epithet goes), but it can be deployed solely from Actor's Stance. If you think martial mind control is "a thing" then you'd probably dispute that an attack vs Will to wrongfoot an enemy or pull off a feint/ruse is legitimate. If you don't believe that such a contest can generate the forced movement effect solely from the character's internal locus of control then you don't think it can be deployed from Actor's Stance.

WotC D&D 4e PHB1 p80 errata
Come and Get It
You brandish your weapon and call out to your foes, luring them close through their overconfidence, and then deliver a spinning strike against them all.
Encounter

Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Close burst 3
Target: Each enemy you can see in the burst
Attack: Strength vs. Will
Hit: You pull the target up to 2 squares, but only if it can end the pull adjacent to you. If the target is adjacent to you after the pull, it takes 1[W] damage.

 

[sheadunne]

I think this example might be instructive.

Let's take the always scary to conversation 4e Martial Exploit "Come and Get It".

I've always wondered why it was that big a deal since there are a number of 3x feats that do similar things.

Goad
You are skilled at inducing opponents to attack you.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a move action, you can goad an opponent that threatens you, has line of sight to you, can hear you, and has an Intelligence of 3 or higher. (The goad is a mind-affecting ability.) When the goaded opponent starts its next turn, if it threatens you and has line of sight to you, it must make a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Cha modifier). If the opponent fails its save, you are the only creature it can make melee attacks against during this turn. (If it kills you, knocks you unconscious, loses sight of you, or otherwise is unable to make melee attacks against you, it may make any remaining melee attacks against other foes, as normal.) A goaded creature can still cast spells, make ranged attacks, move, or perform other actions normally. The use of this feat restricts only melee attacks.
Special: A fighter may select Goad as one of his fighter bonus feats.

 

[Manbearcat]

I've always wondered why it was that big a deal since there are a number of 3x feats that do similar things.

Yeah. Unsurprisingly, I agree (in both that its a big deal and there is precedent in prior editions) Nonetheless, invocation of it may be as toxic to conversation as "4e is nothing more/just a tactical skirmish boardgame linked by freeform roleplaying." Its frustrating because its a good mechanic to break down to clarify conversation.

 

[sheadunne]

Yeah. Unsurprisingly, I agree (in both that its a big deal and there is precedent in prior editions) Nonetheless, invocation of it may be as toxic to conversation as "4e is nothing more/just a tactical skirmish boardgame linked by freeform roleplaying." Its frustrating because its a good mechanic to break down to clarify conversation.

I agree. I'll discuss any game, system, mechanic, ability, what-have-you, regardless if it's something I play or not, for whatever reason. I guess people like holding up their symbols. It also doesn't hurt that I like tactical skirmish boardgames and I like freeform roleplaying. It's a shame I didn't take to 4e.

I'm experimenting with a game that puts all the dice and and most of the rules in the players' hands. That's probably a bit to dangerous to bring up though.

 

[billd91]

I've always wondered why it was that big a deal since there are a number of 3x feats that do similar things.

In some cases, it's a matter of degree. Notice that CaGI affects pretty much everything and makes it come forward to take a hit. Goad won't affect things like oozes, vermin, or even most animals. It also doesn't force it to move and take a hit, rather it overrides other choices it might have in what it can make melee attacks against. Any other action is A-OK. So while with CaGI, you can force a character who normally doesn't move into contact into direct contact and take a hit, with Goad those sorts of standoffish PCs retain their freedom of choice to stay at range. CaGI is much better than Goad in what results it can achieve.

That said, feats like Goad and Antagonize (on the PF side) are still controversial because of their potential to overrule player control of his PC without the intervention of magic. Nearly as controversial as CaGI, in fact. So it's not just that CaGI was an unexpected big deal. Goad and similar feats simply are a big deal.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I've always wondered why it was that big a deal since there are a number of 3x feats that do similar things.

I know that I quite slammed the Goad feat, too. I don't think people that dislike Come And Get It are giving a free pass on everything that was 3.X; if that was the case, I'd still be playing 3.X, whereas I'm not, because I didn't much like a lot of it. So, I wouldn't wonder too much. A lot (most?) of the people that don't like Come And Get It don't like 3.X's Goad feat, either. As always, play what you like

 

[Ahnehnois]

Besides Goad there's also aspects of the knight's challenge mechanic from the 3e PHBII. In any case, the answer was the same, plenty of people didn't like it in 3e, and the 4e version less so, because the attacker rolls, because the effect is more restrictive, and because in 4e "everything is core" (while 3e's martial mind control is not).

All of them cut the same way; they all effectively say that a player can control the behavior of other characters besides their own.

 

[pemerton]

All of them cut the same way; they all effectively say that a player can control the behavior of other characters besides their own.

Which makes them pretty clear examples of "narrative space options for non-spellcasters".

 

[Nagol]

Which makes them pretty clear examples of "narrative space options for non-spellcasters".

In a minimal way. They expand the options within a space for which the character type already has strong options (melee combat) without expanding the space into territory for which the character type has weak options.