D&D 5E 02/08/13 New playtest packet to released today. [Udate: PACKAGE OUT!][

[TwoSix]

I don't remember the older editions well enough to make comparisons, but in 3rd Fighters had good Fort Saves, and that was it.

As far as I can tell, the D&D Next Fighter has the best (or among the best): hit points, armor, durability, attack bonus and melee damage.

Adding in advantage to all saves seems a little much.

Worst in: spells. And that makes all the difference (still).

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

As far as I can tell, the D&D Next Fighter has the best (or among the best): hit points, armor, durability, attack bonus and melee damage.

Adding in advantage to all saves seems a little much.

They had a 75% chance to make ALL saves vs magic at high level in 1e and 2e. Advantage gives them roughly that chance in D&D Next.

I don't think there's a problem with it. The inability to fly/teleport/charm/dispel nasty effects is a huge disadvantage.

I kind of like the idea of the Fighter as the ultimate combat class. Most things don't work on them, they absorb damage like crazy, and they do a lot of damage.

However, they have to rely on casters to get past most traps and puzzles, to transport them large distances, and to heal them.

 

[Li Shenron]

As far as I can tell, the D&D Next Fighter has the best (or among the best): hit points, armor, durability, attack bonus and melee damage.

Adding in advantage to all saves seems a little much.

Worst in: spells. And that makes all the difference (still).

I am not sure it would be too much, because I agree that spells make all the difference.

I don't care that much about balance (unless there is something really glaring), I just want to play a game when choosing any character feels rewarding, and if I choose to play a Fighter it's because I feel like in this adventure/campaign I want to fight. That means, most of the times I'll be the first to go to the front line to attack a monster, and the last one to retreat when things go badly. If I had the best saving throws of all, in addition to the other stuff, I will just do those things with more confidence. (It's not the only way to play a Fighter for sure, but it's still a major one)

Now on the other hand, when I choose to play another character (i.e. 90% of the times), I probably feel like focusing on something else, which most of the times doesn't imply recklessly jumping to the front line. I don't need the best saving throws, and I am not bothered if the Fighter gets them. It just means that I have a better chance at... not having to be in the front line.

I can understand that for "balance" it may seem to much, and I am confident they'll remove this ability after feedback. But for me it's not, for me it actually sounds like a good idea to make the Fighter "more Fighter".

Actually I've said a few times in the past that I'd be fine even if the Fighter had twice everybody else's damage output in combat. That's not the balance I care for. Instead, the balance I really care for, is that all character classes are equally rewarding to play, across the whole game (and not equally in each pillar). If I think too much about who gets the best bits here and worst bits there, it becomes a competition between PCs... then looking at your friend's better ST or higher damage/round will make me feel less rewarded because I'm trying to measure reward against the same purposes of playing a class i.e. deal damage and stay alive. It's ok once in a while to play a campaign like that, but on the long term, I'm just not interested in this kind of game. And that's one of the main reason I skipped 4e btw, where everyone too similar because "crunch balance" is paramount.

 

[Wulfgar76]

I don't care that much about balance (unless there is something really glaring)<SNIP>

I don't either, but as a stand-alone ability, irrespective of anything else, I was sure I was looking at a typo when I read Indomitable - it is that good.

Even if you forget about balance, why should the Fighter be inherently better than all others at resisting everything?

I think entrenched notions from 3rd edition might be why I have difficulty with this ability. Fighters in 3rd Edition had good Fortitude Saves, but were weaker at resisting Reflex and Will attacks. This felt right to me. Fighters are the best at melee, yet fear magic a little more than other classes. I thought this notion was fairly typical among D&D players and DMs.

 

[Li Shenron]

Even if you forget about balance, why should the Fighter be inherently better than all others at resisting everything?

I don't know, but why not? Maybe because she's just going to be in the middle of everything (or the front line) more often than the others?

BTW, the Barbarian has the same ability, but only during Rage.

The Monk had all best ST in 3e, due to the concept of being "trained" body+mind+soul. This concept is inspired by oriental martial arts, and the associated fiction. This could also be applied to the Fighter, except that I would rather highlight the experience rather than the training. If a Fighter fights as a way life, more than anyone else she's been in battle, and she's faced more threats than any other, developing uncanny instinct to shrug off anything.

It might be more suitable for a Fighter's subclass, than the whole class, but it's definitely not inappropriate IMHO.

 

[Klaus]

Indomitable seems just kind of... pervasive. Lots of classes and races give out advantage on saves, but in very specific circumstances/attacks (the broadest one was the gnome's advantage on Int/Wis/Cha saves against spells). And Indomitable renders all those other abilities obsolete.

What if Indomitable allowed a Fighter to use his Action Surge to automatically succeed on a save? That doesn't step on the toes of limited advantage, eats up a Fighter-only resource, and feels more active (you might even say... indomitable ).

 

[Cyberen]

Nope.
From early editions, Fighters are survivors. They are supposed to be durable, gacing dragon breath and SoD. IMHO, 3e "streamlining" of saves did a lot to exacerbate caster dominance (high level casters were broken before, of course, but as high level combat was mainly a matter of initiative, it was less blatant).
I keep my fingers crossed Indomitable would make the final cut.

 

[Stalker0]

What if Indomitable allowed a Fighter to use his Action Surge to automatically succeed on a save? That doesn't step on the toes of limited advantage, eats up a Fighter-only resource, and feels more active (you might even say... indomitable ).

I'm always loath to give defensive benefits to active options.

Right now, action surge is an ability you want to use! You want that extra attack, that extra move, that extra improvised action.

But if suddenly it blocks a spell.....maybe i should keep it in stock...just in case. It turns an active resource into a hoarded resource, which i don't like. Now i have no issue with the concept, and perhaps instead of advantage on all saves they got an autopass once per day or something. But i would not want it wrapped into action surge.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I LOVE Indomitable. As others have said, it calls back to the 1st Edition and 2nd Edition fighter. That was one of the changes that ruined 3rd Edition the most. In earlier editions, higher level characters and monsters made saves easier. In third, they both gave the Wizards more powerful spells, and made it harder for things to save against them. Next has to be reigned back from 3rd a bit, and I think this is a great spot.

 

[Klaus]

I'm always loath to give defensive benefits to active options.

Right now, action surge is an ability you want to use! You want that extra attack, that extra move, that extra improvised action.

But if suddenly it blocks a spell.....maybe i should keep it in stock...just in case. It turns an active resource into a hoarded resource, which i don't like. Now i have no issue with the concept, and perhaps instead of advantage on all saves they got an autopass once per day or something. But i would not want it wrapped into action surge.

Fair enough. But the Fighter also has Second Wind as a defensive resource, which could be tapped by this. Or, as you say, just make it once per day.