Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

[Wicht]

So your previous statement about "Rather, any PC that does these things is going to have major in-campaign consequences, and NPCs that do it define themselves as villains" is either wrong or needs to be qualified.

Well, to be honest, I thought the question was asking about a PC doing this as a matter of whimsy, so perhaps I was reading into the question. Regardless, even destroying an enemy town is going to have consequences of some sort.

 

[Dandu]

Agreed, I just wanted to point out that your understanding of the question was flawed.

With regard to point earlier that fighters have better endurance, being able to swing a sword all day (as long as they have HP), I would like to point out that a consistent, low level of power is not necessarily better than short bursts of high performance, especially in a game where you only have a few fights per day in most situations.

 

[Wicht]

I'm curious as to what your higher level games look like. In mine, it's usually been the party casters distribute the important buffs amongst themselves (mass resist energy, freedom of movement, haste) we make sure to have teleport ready for a quick extraction, and we spell-load our offense based on what we're fighting (dispel magic or greater dispel magic vs humanoids, Will save targeters and debuffs via large guys, assay SR via outsiders, elemental effects if vulnerable, Fort save targeters via casters). We've always had a melee guy, so we drop some buffs on him so we don't have to rez him when he dies. In an ideal all-caster party, we'd let the druid, cleric, or summons handle the melee part.

We tend to have one cleric, one wizard, one ranger, one rogue, and a fighter. Sometimes we have a bard instead of one of the ranger, rogue or fighter. There is a tendency for one fighter to focus on power attacks (2-handed weapons) and another melee sort to focus on bows. I have found archers to be much more effective than wizards at dealing damage over a distance, in truth.

In our current game (at 6th level now), we have a Divine Channeler, an Evocation wizard, a Bow-using Ranger, a Fighter Barbarian, and a Bard. They have been flying through every combat and I am beginning to think about whether I need to up the difficulty a little because the Divine Channeler and the Bard combine to give +5 to hit and damage to every attack roll in just about every combat. They also have two wolves and a clockwork servant which acts as a bodyguard to the wizard, though none of these are great factors in any combat.

 

[ImperatorK]

Then the melee fighter is unprepared. Its called a bow.

Which does squat if the caster is invisible or incorporeal, or your fighter is being chowed on by the caster's summons, or the caster used Wind Wall or Protection from Arrows. And there's still the issue of being able to hit.

As for AC, it is often the case that there is only a 1 in 20 chance that the fighter is going to miss, especially at high levels.

Actually, the higher the level, the less likely it is he is going to hit a caster. That's the beauty (and curse) of spells. Their power grows exponentially.

 

[Wicht]

Agreed, I just wanted to point out that your understanding of the question was flawed.

Fair enough.

With regard to point earlier that fighters have better endurance, being able to swing a sword all day (as long as they have HP), I would like to point out that a consistent, low level of power is not necessarily better than short bursts of high performance, especially in a game where you only have a few fights per day in most situations.

That's a play-style issue. Nobody is going to argue that spellcasters don't nova better than non-spellcasters.

 

[Wicht]

Which does squat if the caster is invisible or incorporeal, or your fighter is being chowed on by the caster's summons, or the caster used Wind Wall or Protection from Arrows. And there's still the issue of being able to hit.

There are workarounds to every attack; and there are workarounds to every defense. What is the point?

Are there not countermeasures to every spell and there are ways to workaround every spell defense through arcane methods.

The challenge is to meet the right attack with the right defense and vice-versa. To assume that every spellcaster is prepared for every attack is nonsensical. In actual game-play neither the wizard nor the fighter ever has all the right answers to all the problems. Which is why the team is stronger for having both.

Actually, the higher the level, the less likely it is he is going to hit a caster. That's the beauty (and curse) of spells. Their power grows exponentially.

You must play with fighters that do not prepare themselves properly. By 12th+ level, the fighter has a lot of shiny options in the form of equipment. And even if they have a 50% miss chance from some spell or other, when they do hit, they tend to hurt the casters very badly.

 

[Savage Wombat]

The topic has clearly changed yet again. Are we simply going for "longest thread" here? What is the record?

 

[ImperatorK]

The challenge is to meet the right attack with the right defense and vice-versa. To assume that every spellcaster is prepared for every attack is nonsensical. In actual game-play neither the wizard nor the fighter ever has all the right answers to all the problems. Which is why the team is stronger for having both.

A caster can change his options over night. A fighter can't.

 

[Wicht]

A caster can change his options over night. A fighter can't.

Yeah, though being dead puts a real damper on that for the caster.

If you think casters are better than fighters, feel free to continue to do that. But we've already all mostly agreed its a game-style problem, not a problem with the mechanics.

 

[Dandu]

That's a play-style issue. Nobody is going to argue that spellcasters don't nova better than non-spellcasters.

However, the default playstyle of the game is to have a few encounters per day, not to spend an entire week conducting running battles with an enemy horde.

You must play with fighters that do not prepare themselves properly. By 12th+ level, the fighter has a lot of shiny options in the form of equipment. And even if they have a 50% miss chance from some spell or other, when they do hit, they tend to hurt the casters very badly.

I would be very much interested in testing this out. Care to have a gentlemanly duel?