Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

[TwoSix]

What I dislike about this approach is the rolling stats of the Chamberlain. If he can be persuaded readily at L1, then how much easier should it be for those L22 characters returning from slaying the Ancient Wyrm? Either there is no meaningful challenge left, the Chamberlain has grown much less accommodating over the intervening months/years or we need to move to a new kingdom, with less accommodating rulers, every couple of levels.

If the PC's encountered him at level 1 as a relevant challenge, than he wouldn't even be framed as a challenge by level 22. He'd just let the PCs go by, because they're intergalactic heroes at that point, and if they need to see the king, they will. If a Chamberlain is a serious social challenge at level 22, he better be the freakin' Dos Equus man of Chamberlains, or we're well past the point of keeping any sort of genre cohesiveness.

I'd like to think the game can handle a structure where it is easier to obtain an audience with the owner of the Tavern to be allowed to make a speech about the need to defend the town than it is to obtain an audience with the King of All the Land to discuss your desire to be named Crown Prince. In the "indie" model as described to me, both are equally difficult at all levels, if they are to require any actual effort at all. Yet the power of a Dragon is fixed in stone, and will not vary regardless of the level of the characters, and it's K for him to start as an insurmountable threat, become challenging but feasible and eventually be relegated to another oversized colour-coded lizard.

It's relative to the fictional positioning in the game. If you're anonymous murderhobos, Tavern Guy is a challenge and the King is impossible, which the DM will tell you well before the scene is even framed. If you're actually high-ranking nobles out for their first real taste of heroism, the King might be easier to reach than convincing a local Tavern owner to trust a bunch of high-falutin nobleman.

And yes, in a D&D game, the power of a Dragon IS fixed by the pre-existing rules. In a different game, the Dragon could easily be a more mutable threat. That's a choice of D&D design to have concrete rules in place for monster design but to leave social encounters more mutable.

Maybe wanting 1st level characters to secure an audience with the King should not work very well either. In any fiction I've read, characters with access to the King don't get much benefit from that access. So if we can access a L1 King, the best aid he ought to be able to provide should likely be a fresh horse, a few days' provisions and maybe replacement arrows and a 1st level Warrior to accompany you. Doesn't seem like much of a King, but then it's tougher to kill a CR3 Dragon than to get an audience with the King and make him Friendly or Helpful, so the benefits of befriending the King (a less than CR3 challenge) should be no less than the treasure associated with a CR3 Dragon (which is still "triple standard"!).

I wouldn't let 1st level anonymous murderhobos meet the king either. But I wouldn't make up a chamberlain who runs away from the character's conversation just to prove the point.

 

[Dandu]

You cannot use a 9th level spell to cast another 9th level spell for free. You just can't.

Gate. Noble Djinn. Three Wishes.

 

[N'raac]

I wouldn't let 1st level anonymous murderhobos meet the king either. But I wouldn't make up a chamberlain who runs away from the character's conversation just to prove the point.

He doesn't have to run away. He can simply refuse to listen, summon the guards, require longer than a minute to persuade (perhaps much longer) and/or have a DC that renders success by the PC's (after modification for "unknown individuals", "asking to see the King", and any other "not likely" aspects of the characters) impossible. But that, too, seems unacceptable under "Indie Gaming" models. They must have the prospect to see the King, so frame the scene and let me roll to get our heavily armed murderhobos alone with the King.

 

[TwoSix]

He doesn't have to run away. He can simply refuse to listen, summon the guards, require longer than a minute to persuade (perhaps much longer) and/or have a DC that renders success by the PC's (after modification for "unknown individuals", "asking to see the King", and any other "not likely" aspects of the characters) impossible. But that, too, seems unacceptable under "Indie Gaming" models. They must have the prospect to see the King, so frame the scene and let me roll to get our heavily armed murderhobos alone with the King.

No. If their goal is to see the king, and that's impossible, just tell them it's impossible, and they should try something else. Don't waste their time with the chamberlain if there are actually other things to do.

 

[Wicht]

Gate. Noble Djinn. Three Wishes.

Gate explicitly states that involved forms of services (of which I would think it reasonable to include Wish) requires that the being be compensated in some way. The spell description goes out of its way to make it clear that it might be necessary to bargain with creatures called. Alternatively, the caster can attempt to "capture" the noble djinn via the gate. I think the process of binding a genie so that it will cast wishes could reasonably be expected to require a circle of binding, the components of which probably cost about 75,000-100,000 gp.

 

[Wicht]

No. If their goal is to see the king, and that's impossible, just tell them it's impossible, and they should try something else. Don't waste their time with the chamberlain if there are actually other things to do.

Why not? Genuine question? Red Herrings, false trails, and social roadblocks are standard fare for a scenario of court intrigue, and/or mystery. Why should I tell players upfront things I would prefer their characters should discover for themselves via interaction with the game world?

 

[N'raac]

Gate. Noble Djinn. Three Wishes.

Here we go again...

Some djinn (1% of the total population) are noble. A noble djinni can grant three wishes to any being (nongenies only) who captures it. Noble djinn perform no other services and, upon granting the third wish, are free of their servitude. Noble djinn are as strong as efreet, with 10 Hit Dice.

I'm not convinced Gating him in constitutes "capturing" him. Let's look at Gate.

Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction. Second, you may then call a particular individual or kind of being through the gate.

The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster’s choice), oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side.

A gate has a front and a back. Creatures moving through the gate from the front are transported to the other plane; creatures moving through it from the back are not.

So far, so good

Planar Travel
As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire (a creation effect). Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire. Travelers need not join hands with you—anyone who chooses to step through the portal is transported. A gate cannot be opened to another point on the same plane; the spell works only for interplanar travel.

You may hold the gate open only for a brief time (no more than 1 round per caster level), and you must concentrate on doing so, or else the interplanar connection is severed.

Not really our goal.

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

I'd allow the Noble Djinn is a separate creature type, so you don't have to keep calling Djinn at 1,000 xp a shot waiting for that 1% possibility to pay off. It's here.

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

17th level wizard, 10 HD djinn - no sweat. You can get 2 at L20!

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.
Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.
Note: When you use a calling spell such as gate to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it becomes a spell of that type.

Since he's not captured, it seems to me he needs to be coerced to give up three wishes, if he is even capable of doing so, as the only time he normally has that ability is if he's captured. Assuming he can be bribed (ie that he can choose to grant wishes), then I expect he wants at least 5,000 xp per wish, plus the price of a spellcaster casting three 9th level spells, plus any costs that the Wishes will impose upon him. Simply by classifying "granting three wishes" as not analogous to "an immediate task", the issue is easily resolved.

Of course, if he can only grant wishes if captured (which seems to be what is implied - otherwise, why not grant wishes for himself?), we need merely define "captured" to include imprisonment for at least a day. I haven't seen too many wizards with a 14,400+ caster level. Even an hour (600 rounds) should do the trick.
[h=6]

XP Cost 1,000 XP (only for the calling creatures function).

 

[Dandu]

Gate explicitly states that involved forms of services (of which I would think it reasonable to include Wish) requires that the being be compensated in some way. The spell description goes out of its way to make it clear that it might be necessary to bargain with creatures called. Alternatively, the caster can attempt to "capture" the noble djinn via the gate. I think the process of binding a genie so that it will cast wishes could reasonably be expected to require a circle of binding, the components of which probably cost about 75,000-100,000 gp.

1. You are still using a 9th level spell to fuel (multiple) 9th level spells, even under your interpretation that there is a cost involved.
2. See text for immediate tasks services:

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.

Since he's not captured, it seems to me he needs to be coerced to give up three wishes, if he is even capable of doing so, as the only time he normally has that ability is if he's captured.

What is the definition of the word "commanded"?

 

[N'raac]

Why not? Genuine question? Red Herrings, false trails, and social roadblocks are standard fare for a scenario of court intrigue, and/or mystery. Why should I tell players upfront things I would prefer their characters should discover for themselves via interaction with the game world?

With my full agreement (and same on the Gate/Wish - you slipped in while I was typing), it seems that mystery is not permitted in an Indie game, as the players must be fully aware of everything that is occurring. I don't believe that's the case of every Indie game, but it was certainly presented to me in the past that there were no secrets from players in an Indie game.

To me, that takes away a lot of the gaming fun, another reason I have not been sold on the Indie model (at least as presented to me on these boards in the past).

 

[Wicht]

And can I just say that I really appreciate PF changing the xp cost to a gp cost for these spells...