Does D&D Next need to be a success for D&D to be a success?

[NewJeffCT]

I don't. Not because hey are not a great company, they are, but because D&D is an icon in the category (its the Model T). Most people who casually played probably don't know who TSR and WoTC are, and that's the true point o comparison.

Now, if Paizo can get its hand on the brand

good point on Paizo vs Pathfinder. And, if D&D Next does tank and Hasbro shelves D&D, it would be sweet if Paizo could buy D&D. (My hope is that Next is a success, while Paizo grows and the hobby itself grows over the years.)

 

[GreyLord]

Most people I knew at the time (high school & college students) thought of ET as a kiddie movie and didn't see it because of that. And, that was one movie from the 70s through the late 90s that you cited, whereas I cited Big Bang Theory that has featured D&D probably a good dozen times or more, as well as an entire D&D episode on Community, and numerous mentions over the years on both Colbert and The Daily Show. Heck, a few years ago, my daughter was watching Wizards of Waverly Place and they featured a D&D game in one episode, too. Not to mention the very last episode of Buffy starting off with a D&D game. Since the late 90s, you've had the 3 Lord of the Rings movies, a Hobbit movie, 8 Harry Potter movies, I'm not sure how many Twilight movies, The Hunger Games, Game of Thrones, True Blood, The Walking Dead, Once Upon a Time, Lost, Grimm, Heroes, etc. All part of the fantasy genre and expanding awareness of the genre as a whole. Heck, the only fantasy on network TV in the 80s and into the 90s until Buffy came along was the D&D cartoon. (Hercules and Xena were syndicated shows that also came along in the mid to late 90s.) And again, it was a Saturday morning cartoon so was relegated to mostly kids watching it and therefore not part of the mainstream culture like it is now.

Also, I have been an avid collector of anything D&D related from the 70s until now. I have never once seen anything related to D&D in any department store (KMart, Sears, etc) or toy store (Toys R Us, Kaybee Toys, Child World, etc). Not saying it didn't happen elsewhere, but maybe distribution never reached New England/the Northeast? Heck, I would have done backflips if I ever did see D&D material in one of those stores because I could bike to the local KMart when I was a kid it was so close. The D&D stuff I found was always either in bookstores, comic book stores or hobby stores in the 70s, 80s and into the 90s.

Sorry, you certain you lived in the 80s?

You're remarks seem awfully odd for one that says they were alive at the time.

It's impossible for you to have missed the movies, TV shows, and the rest. Basically, just look up fantasy movies from the early and mid 80s for a list. Heck, even Conan the Barbarian is more someone's personal idea of Conan with their D&D campaign (Conan from the books is basically a far different character) and in the Destroyer you have all the classes represented (Warrior, Cleric, Rogue, and Wizard).

The D&D books were in the department stores in New England, and in fact, all over the US. If you were in Eastern Europe, on the otherhand, not certain if it was anywhere in those areas, if they were it probably WOULD HAVE been a hobby store if any even existed.

All the Fantasy movies and shows you listed are more inspired by fantasy OTHER than D&D. The ones from the 80s are more or less inspired DIRECTLY by D&D.

The other difference are shows like Big Bang theory are EXACTLY why D&D is marginalized today...it's been stereotyped as the game of nerds. Not mainstream normal people, but nerds. In the 80s it was mainstream. BIG DIFFERENCE.

However, if you had a jaded childhood, I'm sorry. But seriously, if you missed the 80s fad...you must have been under a rock. The closest I could come to figuring out the type of fad today that's comparable would be perhaps like the Apple Tablets when they came out. For a short while, D&D was MASSIVE.

Of course, the tablet revolution is probably going to last longer then the D&D fad, but that fad was enormous in the English speaking portions of the Western world.

 

[GreyLord]

good point on Paizo vs Pathfinder. And, if D&D Next does tank and Hasbro shelves D&D, it would be sweet if Paizo could buy D&D. (My hope is that Next is a success, while Paizo grows and the hobby itself grows over the years.)

At this point I don't think Paizo will get the D&D brand, even if it tanks.

I suppose that there's a possibility that they may be able to license it from Hasbro (not own, but license it), but the more likely course of action if Hasbro shelves the D&D RPG is that they continue to issue novels and other D&D related content (brand is still valuable in that way) while leaving the game on a back burner.

PAIZO is growing at a remarkable rate though, and it wouldn't surprise me if Pathfinder becomes the default TTRPG if DDN tanks (and in some areas it already is the major TTRPG).

 

[NewJeffCT]

Sorry, you certain you lived in the 80s?

You're remarks seem awfully odd for one that says they were alive at the time.

It's impossible for you to have missed the movies, TV shows, and the rest. Basically, just look up fantasy movies from the early and mid 80s for a list. Heck, even Conan the Barbarian is more someone's personal idea of Conan with their D&D campaign (Conan from the books is basically a far different character) and in the Destroyer you have all the classes represented (Warrior, Cleric, Rogue, and Wizard).

The D&D books were in the department stores in New England, and in fact, all over the US. If you were in Eastern Europe, on the otherhand, not certain if it was anywhere in those areas, if they were it probably WOULD HAVE been a hobby store if any even existed.

All the Fantasy movies and shows you listed are more inspired by fantasy OTHER than D&D. The ones from the 80s are more or less inspired DIRECTLY by D&D.

The other difference are shows like Big Bang theory are EXACTLY why D&D is marginalized today...it's been stereotyped as the game of nerds. Not mainstream normal people, but nerds. In the 80s it was mainstream. BIG DIFFERENCE.

However, if you had a jaded childhood, I'm sorry. But seriously, if you missed the 80s fad...you must have been under a rock. The closest I could come to figuring out the type of fad today that's comparable would be perhaps like the Apple Tablets when they came out. For a short while, D&D was MASSIVE.

Of course, the tablet revolution is probably going to last longer then the D&D fad, but that fad was enormous in the English speaking portions of the Western world.

We'll just have to disagree on our memories of what happened in the 1980s. The point on all the mentions in recent years on BBT, Community, Sarah Silverman, Buffy, Colbert and The Daily Show shows that people know the game. There was no mention of D&D on Johnny Carson, Leno or Letterman back in the 80s and 90s (the Colbert and Daily Show of their day), there were no sitcoms involving people who played D&D in the 80s and 90s, there were no movie and TV stars who admitted to being active D&D players, or who credit D&D for their success (Jon Favreau). It's only over the last 10-15 years that people in the media have admitted to it. Coincidentally, the three movies with "Dungeons & Dragons" in their title have come out in these last 10-15 years as well, though none were stellar. If D&D were that popular back in the 80s and 90s, it would have been mentioned in popular culture outside of the D&D cartoon.

 

[Wicht]

So, Paizo will never get to that level of brand recognition, mostly because they are a brand imitator rather than a true innovator, in the category sense.

By your logic, because Henry Ford was an innovator, Chevrolet, Toyota and Cadillac could never become household names.

Never is a long time.

Four years ago people were saying Pathfinder would never outsell Dungeons and Dragons...

Prognosticating about what could never happen in a market is a rather dubious proposition.

 

[Wicht]

We'll just have to disagree on our memories of what happened in the 1980s. The point on all the mentions in recent years on BBT, Community, Sarah Silverman, Buffy, Colbert and The Daily Show shows that people know the game. There was no mention of D&D on Johnny Carson, Leno or Letterman back in the 80s and 90s (the Colbert and Daily Show of their day), there were no sitcoms involving people who played D&D in the 80s and 90s, there were no movie and TV stars who admitted to being active D&D players, or who credit D&D for their success (Jon Favreau). It's only over the last 10-15 years that people in the media have admitted to it. Coincidentally, the three movies with "Dungeons & Dragons" in their title have come out in these last 10-15 years as well, though none were stellar. If D&D were that popular back in the 80s and 90s, it would have been mentioned in popular culture outside of the D&D cartoon.

Greylord has the right of it in saying that Dungeons and Dragons was sold in box stores and other outlets. I remember buying discounted modules in Toy's R Us and I bought my Basic boxed set in a drugstore in 1983. There were even, at times, discounted game boxes in the Clearance racks of Waldenbooks because they had overbought them (good finds for a kid with tight budget). In Middle School I remember kids sitting out in the playground playing AD&D (sadly they were older than me and wouldn't let me join - but I do remember first learning about marilith demons listening to their game.

And he's also right that there were a lot of B movies that took their inspiration from Dungeons and Dragons. Indeed the eighties were really a heyday for a certain style of sword and sorcery film... Ator, Conan, Deathstalker, Beastmaster, He Man (film and cartoon), and the like. Many of the movies you are listing have very little to do with Dungeons and Dragons (The Walking Dead?) or the influence thereof. Indeed, though Lord of the Rings has helped make fantasy a more plausible commodity for successful films, there are still, I would wager, less fantasy movies being made today than there were in the 80's. Sadly.

Now, where you are right is in the fact that there are more adults today who credit their creative inspiration growing up to the game, but thats because in the 70's and 80's most of us were still growing up. But the game was a cultural influence even then, and in some ways more overtly than today. Today it has become more common in its tropes, in no small part because of the influence Dungeons and Dragons had on video games, so that the influence is far more subtle I think. Its no longer a fad, but something here to stay.

 

[darjr]

My Moldvay Box set, both of them, came from the U.S. Air Force base BX, least that's how I remember it. Or Sears.

 

[Warbringer]

.
The other difference are shows like Big Bang theory are EXACTLY why D&D is marginalized today...it's been stereotyped as the game of nerds. Not mainstream normal people, but nerds. In the 80s it was mainstream. BIG DIFFERENCE.

I lived and played in the UK during the 80s and all I can share it was never mainstream, even at Uni, and always "geeky"*, so I can't blame Big Bang Theory for that. The stores that carried it were always specialty shops, rather than your local WHSmith.

Agreed, best Piazo could hope for would being the ttrpg license holder.

----------
* now at uni our group was the BBT nerd center with undergrads in maths, physics and law, 2 phd candidates, one professor of chemistry and one of philosophy

 

[NewJeffCT]

Let's see - given that time frame of the last 10-15 years:

3 Lord of the Rings movies
8 Harry Potter movies (featuring wizards, giants, goblins, elves, dragons, undead, wraiths, lots of D&D-esque magic, including magic schools like transmutation, as well as polymorphing, potions, etc)
The Hobbit, part 1
a new Conan the Barbarian
Dungeons & Dragons, the movie
two made for TV sequels to the D&D movie
The Lion, the Witch & The Wardrobe
The Voyage of the Dawn Treader
Prince Caspian
Prince of Persia
The Golden Compass
Snow White & The Huntsman
Hansel & Gretel, Witch Slayers
John Carter
Beautiful Creatures
Clash & Wrath of the Titans
Pirates of the Caribbean and its three sequels
Underworld and its three sequels
The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
Van Helsing
Lemony Snicket
The Golden Compass
Eragon
Beowulf
The 13th Warrior
Shrek and its 3 sequels
Reign of Fire
The Scorpion King
In the Name of the King: A Dungeon Siege Tale
The Spiderwick Chronicles
King Arthur
Your Highness
Percy Jackson, The Lightning Thief and its sequel
Jack the Giant Slayer
The Forbidden Kingdom
Red Riding Hood
Pathfinder

That's not including superhero movies, movies that are primarily sci-fi, the five Twilight movies and foreign movies.

And, fantasy has also become more of a staple on TV than it was 30-40 years ago as well. In the 80s, there was the D&D cartoon and a few other cartoons like He-Man. What were your other choices for fantasy on TV? Fantasy Island and Highway to Heaven? Now, you have, or have had, network TV shows like Buffy, Angel, Lost, Once Upon A Time, Once Upon a Time in Wonderland, Game of Thrones, Grimm, Supernatural, Merlin, Charmed, The Dresden Files, Wizards of Waverly Place, and the new hit Sleepy Hollow. That's not even counting syndicated shows like the aforementioned Hercules & Xena, Legend of the Seeker, Relic Hunter, Beastmaster, etc.

So, I find there is way more fantasy around now than in the 1980s.

 

[Zardnaar]

Fantasy is more mainstream now, D&D is not