D&D 5E Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)

[pemerton]

I get that you don't like balance over the campaign. But works as a balancer for many. That is what the different XP charts were all about.

I was just looking at the 1st ed PHB. A druid reaches 3rd level at 4000 XP, and has access to 3rd level spells - including Neutralize Poison, Cure Disease, Call Lightning, etc.

Surely no one thinks that's balanced!

 

[Guest 85555]

I was just looking at the 1st ed PHB. A druid reaches 3rd level at 4000 XP, and has access to 3rd level spells - including Neutralize Poison, Cure Disease, Call Lightning, etc.

Surely no one thinks that's balanced!

I only play 1E once in a while, and havent seen a druid at the table in that edition for ages, so i can't really judge. It is possiblle it is imbalanced. It is also possible a crucial balancing factor is beiing missed here (i have noticed this a lot with 1E when i do play it).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

1st, a 3rd level druid can only cast 2nd level spells... a 5th leve druid can cast 1 3rd level spell per day.

I have a 2e Phb handy, lets look at it's 'balance through xp' (I would not call it balance through campaign)

lets grab a few levels of fighter

level 2 2,000xp
level 10 500,000xp
level 15 1,750,000 xp

now lets see where that puts us with casters:
Wizard:
2,000xp is still 1st level
500,000 xp is 11th level... it is easier to be an 11th level wizard then fighter???
1,750,000xp is 14th level... um I am confused this seems very random

Cleric
2,000xp is 2nd level
500,000 xp is 10th level...
1,750,000xp is 15th level...

Druid
2,000xp is still 2nd level
500,000 xp is 12th level... it is easier to be an 12th level druid then 11th level fighter???
1,750,000xp is 19th level... um I am confused this seems very random

so um... anyone want to explain this??? I'm at a loss

 

[Guest 85555]

I have a 2e Phb handy, lets look at it's 'balance through xp' (I would not call it balance through campaign)

By balance over the campaign, i meant xp, roll straight 3d6 down the line, mages starting weak but getting powerful over time, etc all the things that balance out over thecourse of a campaign or over several campaigns.

lets grab a few levels of fighter

level 2 2,000xp
level 10 500,000xp
level 15 1,750,000 xp

now lets see where that puts us with casters:
Wizard:
2,000xp is still 1st level
500,000 xp is 11th level... it is easier to be an 11th level wizard then fighter???
1,750,000xp is 14th level... um I am confused this seems very random

Cleric
2,000xp is 2nd level
500,000 xp is 10th level...
1,750,000xp is 15th level...

Druid
2,000xp is still 2nd level
500,000 xp is 12th level... it is easier to be an 12th level druid then 11th level fighter???
1,750,000xp is 19th level... um I am confused this seems very random

so um... anyone want to explain this??? I'm at a loss

Yeah, my players and i have examined the xp chart and there are issues. Not going to take time to look at the numbers again now, but these could stand some improvement. I think the premise is sound and some of the quirks i have seen people say make sense in light if actual play (even if the patterns seems odd). But there are definitely things i would change.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

1st, a 3rd level druid can only cast 2nd level spells... a 5th leve druid can cast 1 3rd level spell per day.

I have a 2e Phb handy, lets look at it's 'balance through xp' (I would not call it balance through campaign)

lets grab a few levels of fighter

level 2 2,000xp
level 10 500,000xp
level 15 1,750,000 xp

now lets see where that puts us with casters:
Wizard:
2,000xp is still 1st level
500,000 xp is 11th level... it is easier to be an 11th level wizard then fighter???
1,750,000xp is 14th level... um I am confused this seems very random

Cleric
2,000xp is 2nd level
500,000 xp is 10th level...
1,750,000xp is 15th level...

Druid
2,000xp is still 2nd level
500,000 xp is 12th level... it is easier to be an 12th level druid then 11th level fighter???
1,750,000xp is 19th level... um I am confused this seems very random

so um... anyone want to explain this??? I'm at a loss

Through years, I've come to believe that class-based XP rewards are really needed if you want to balance this, without developing your own XP tables. Besides other rarer awards, like researching spells and creating magic items, the wizard classes gain a flat (50 x spell level) when they cast a spell to overcome a challenge. Warriors, on the other hand, gain (10 x character level x the number of HD) of each creature they defeat. Thieves gain a flat 200 XP for use of thieving skill and (2 x GP value) of treasures obtained. Priests gain flat 100 XP for use of granted power and (100 x spell level) for spell they cast only if they are cast to advance his ethos.

So, let's imagine a party of third level adventurers, one of each of the classic classes, enters a cave searching for some ogres (let's say three of those) and trade goods stolen from a merchant house.

- The fighter gains XP for defeating the three ogres and also his share of the 810: that's 562 XP.
- To help the mage, let's say he used all of his three spells: that's 402.
- Unless we're talking about a god of the trade here (or a god that favors protection of adventurers), the priest probably will have to survive with his share of the combat XP: that's 202.
- I'll say that the thief scouted for us, moving silently and detecting noise inside the cave. I'm not calculating the treasure of three ogres, but you'll have to trust me that he's gaining 602+.

One more ogre there and everybody would gain an additional 67 XPs, except for the fighter, who would gain 67+120. The thief would probably benefit from additional treasure as well. The difference in amount of XP earned in a single encounter grows with levels, obviously, as the wizard types need to save resources that warriors don't need to.

If a level 20 mage casts all his spells in a single day to defeat challenges, that's 8.100 XP total. If their group was in fact facing the Tarrasque, the fighter would earn 14.000 XP from that fight. On receiving his share of the 10d10 1.000 GP diamonds that can be removed from the creature's carapace, the thief would gain about 27.500 XP.

I love 2E.

Cheers,

 

[pemerton]

1st, a 3rd level druid can only cast 2nd level spells

This is not correct for 1st ed AD&D. I assume you are talking about 2nd ed AD&D, where clerics and druids are on the same spell table.

The actual XP charts for 2nd ed are very similar to 1st ed AD&D, and hence carry over the wonky druid and wizard XP tables.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This is not correct for 1st ed AD&D. I assume you are talking about 2nd ed AD&D, where clerics and druids are on the same spell table.

The actual XP charts for 2nd ed are very similar to 1st ed AD&D, and hence carry over the wonky druid and wizard XP tables.

wait you are telling me a 3rd level druid in 1e had 3rd level spells???!?!?!?

 

[pemerton]

wait you are telling me a 3rd level druid in 1e had 3rd level spells???!?!?!?

Yes. Allow me to quote myself from about half-a-dozen posts upthread:

I was just looking at the 1st ed PHB. A druid reaches 3rd level at 4000 XP, and has access to 3rd level spells - including Neutralize Poison, Cure Disease, Call Lightning, etc.

Surely no one thinks that's balanced!

 

[billd91]

I was just looking at the 1st ed PHB. A druid reaches 3rd level at 4000 XP, and has access to 3rd level spells - including Neutralize Poison, Cure Disease, Call Lightning, etc.

Surely no one thinks that's balanced!

Why not? Consider the other things involved. The druid has weak armor and moderate weapons - most of which are relatively rare as magic items. His spells are dependent on very special material components or they become weaker. He starts up with a good bump in spells, sure. But his ability to do non-specialized healing is weak because his version of cure light wounds is 2nd level. Call lightning isn't much of a balance factor because of its limited applicability and long casting time. And a lot of his other spells are not particularly strong at those levels. He can hold animals, heat metal (also a fairly slow spell to major effect), and a variety of other divinatory or utilitarian effects. Basically, the druid excels most at curing disease and neutralizing poison at 3rd level and if that's unbalancing there's a serious problem with the definition of balance.

 

[Luce]

Druid
2,000xp is still 2nd level
500,000 xp is 12th level... it is easier to be an 12th level druid then 11th level fighter???
1,750,000xp is 19th level... um I am confused this seems very random

so um... anyone want to explain this??? I'm at a loss

1.750.000 is 14 level druid. To get there the character needs to face have to win three challenges (at 12,13,14) before advancing each level. 15th level is a political position and it takes only 500.000 to advance to 16th (since it is a more sedentary position) After 16th the character is hierophant druid and start with 0 XP. So 20th level druid need to have actually earned 5,500,000XP during his career.

As for the rest, I guess it is a value judgement of how balanced different classes are. Wizards weak at low levels, but quite capable at high. Individual rewards (optional but common rule) encourage players to focus on their specialties (fighter face monsters one-on-one, casters use creative and mithos appropriate spells & make items, thief get as much gold as possible etc) . Lastley, let me point out that making magic items actually gave XP, but each required an adventure to accomplish.