D&D 5E Will the inclusion of the option of DoaM cause you to not buy 5e.

Will the option of DoaM cause you to not buy 5e?


DoaM produces a remarkable reaction from the gamer collective for an ability that really isn't that powerful. Adding +2 damage to great weapon attacks results in about the same damage output for a 18 STR PC. I think there's something underlying beneath the intensity of the discussion that's more fundamental than whether your great sword does 4 damage guaranteed each round.

D&D has spent most of its history with binary success/failure mechanics which follow a pattern of something/nothing. If you fail at an attack or ability(skill) check, you get nothing. Saves are the other way round, as succeeding often means nothing happens, which is better than failing and getting the bad thing. Of course, making a save can still mean suffering some adverse effect, like half damage. These assumptions have been part of D&D for so long that any attempt to challenge them seems jarring. In a nutshell, where you are on the DoaM debate can be gauged by your reaction to the following statement.

"Failure means you get nothing."

To many people, this seems perfectly sensible if what you're trying to do is swing a large piece of metal at a target. A miss, surely, means that the weapon didn't connect at all or deflected harmlessly off the target's armor/shield. DoaM gives the impression that the great-weapon wielder never misses, and therefore never actually fails.

From another point of view, missing just means that you didn't achieve what you were intending, not that nothing happened at all. A darts player going for a 180 would consider a throw landing outside the triple-20 to be a miss, even if it hit the bullseye. The thrower still gets points, just not what was wished for. This perspective categorises a miss as the attacker's failure to connect fully with the target, while assuming the attacker's skill can still make these partial connections count for something.

Also, some people - and this really helps heat things up - think that the italicised statement above is true, and that this is good. It's a small step from this attitude to claiming that DoaM advocates want to see no outs in baseball and 1 or 2 points for missed three-pointers in basketball. However, DoaM provides one example of a something-result for failure, rather than claiming that all failures must give something. In the end, all it really does is suggest that the "wiff" effect is not necessarily the most logical outcome for every miss on a melee strike. I can sympathise with those who can't stomach the idea of a 'miss hitting', but I also feel that the previous sentence has a point.
 

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From another point of view, missing just means that you didn't achieve what you were intending, not that nothing happened at all. A darts player going for a 180 would consider a throw landing outside the triple-20 to be a miss, even if it hit the bullseye. The thrower still gets points, just not what was wished for. This perspective categorises a miss as the attacker's failure to connect fully with the target, while assuming the attacker's skill can still make these partial connections count for something.
To me that's what the damage roll reflects, rather than the to-hit roll. Sometimes you max the damage die (or dice) - 8 on a d8 - there's your 180. Most times you don't - you roll 3 on d8, for example; you did some damage but next time maybe that same swing will do more. Or less.

But if you "miss" (which includes missing completely, being parried, inability to get through the armour and-or magical defenses, etc.), you miss; and better luck next time.

Lanefan
 

To me that's what the damage roll reflects, rather than the to-hit roll. Sometimes you max the damage die (or dice) - 8 on a d8 - there's your 180. Most times you don't - you roll 3 on d8, for example; you did some damage but next time maybe that same swing will do more. Or less.

But if you "miss" (which includes missing completely, being parried, inability to get through the armour and-or magical defenses, etc.), you miss; and better luck next time.

Lanefan

This I agree with.
 


Probably because people are not judging things based solely on how powerful they are (or are not).

Yes.

DoaM can make what was once tense and exciting into a snoozefest. Fighter vs bad guy both down to their last handful of hp, and, thanks to the combination of DoaM and cyclic initiative we KNOW that herofighter will get to go before big bad and no matter what gets rolled, big bad is going down. :erm:

Oh.....the excitement.
 

Not quite. In 1e it's a targeted attack, you need to roll to hit as if you're a fighter of your caster level; and if you miss nothing happens at all. (thus no DoaM)

...

I *think* it worked similarly in later editions, can others here confirm?

3e it was a ranged touch and no DoaM. Latest playtest packet has it at half damage which I actually quite like. (If they take it away they should give it a bit of a damage boost then)

Honestly I'm just playing devil's advocate here. DoaM for GWF is silly. But enough folks are not making that clear and are making it sound like they want some absolute no DoaM ever (or maybe that's what they want). I don't want to see the designers paint themselves into a corner over the shrill shoutings of some folks who take an absolutist position. There are times where DoaM is appropriate (AoE, grenade-like weapons, and so forth). The designers just need to identify those (and where it definitely is not such as melee weapon targeted attacks). And people need to understand that things were put in the packets specifically to test the community's reaction.
 

I don't like DoaM because it's pathetically under-powered next to the other options if you hit more than 50% of the time. And I imagine once you get a magic weapon it will move from "under-powered" to "completely obviated".

I have no issue with it narrative-wise, however.
 

Not quite. In 1e it's a targeted attack, you need to roll to hit as if you're a fighter of your caster level; and if you miss nothing happens at all. (thus no DoaM) If you hit the actual arrow does 2-5 points damage and also gives off an acid splash which (depending how one reads the rather vague wording) may or may not have a save-for-half component...but note this is all after an actual hit has been rolled.

I *think* it worked similarly in later editions, can others here confirm?

Lanefan

See my last post for 3rd edition Melfs. Also no splash damage.
 

Yes.

DoaM can make what was once tense and exciting into a snoozefest. Fighter vs bad guy both down to their last handful of hp, and, thanks to the combination of DoaM and cyclic initiative we KNOW that herofighter will get to go before big bad and no matter what gets rolled, big bad is going down. :erm:

Oh.....the excitement.

A wizard ahead in the initiative order with magic missile produces exactly the same result. What DoaM does do in this situation is make the two-handed fighter the best guy at closing out a fight. She's who you call when the villain won't quite drop.
 

Yes.

DoaM can make what was once tense and exciting into a snoozefest. Fighter vs bad guy both down to their last handful of hp, and, thanks to the combination of DoaM and cyclic initiative we KNOW that herofighter will get to go before big bad and no matter what gets rolled, big bad is going down. :erm:

Oh.....the excitement.

Make that Wizard a Fighter and literally the same thing happens, except the Wizard can do more miss damage to guarantee the kill, can do it from range, and can also kill any remaining mooks who happen to be standing near the bad guy.
 

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