D&D 5E Will the inclusion of the option of DoaM cause you to not buy 5e.

[ExploderWizard]

What's with the attitude? All I'm doing is asking you to back up your claim.

Sorry Lucy. Let me splain.

Me- DoaM might not be liked so much once npcs use it against the players.

Someone else- who says npcs get access to great weapon fighting spec?

Me- other fighters who are not the players.

You- why don't other fighters get access to this?

.........you spin me right round baby right round like record baby right round round round....

 

[EnglishLanguage]

I don't care what someone else said. If you can't back up claims you make, don't make them.

 

[Ashkelon]

Sorry Lucy. Let me splain.

Me- DoaM might not be liked so much once npcs use it against the players.

Someone else- who says npcs get access to great weapon fighting spec?

Me- other fighters who are not the players.

You- why don't other fighters get access to this?

.........you spin me right round baby right round like record baby right round round round....

A few things you must note here.

1. NPCs do not get class levels. It is your own choice as a DM to give NPCs class levels.

2. As such, it is also your own choice to give NPCs class features. This means that if you give a NPC damage on a miss, that is your choice to do so. If you do not like damage on a miss, don't give it to your NPCs. It really is that simple.

3. Damage on a miss from NPCs is also no big deal at all. The reason for this is bounded accuracy. Any NPC who can deal damage on a miss will probably already be hitting 50% of the time anyway. IF you have PCs with 24 HP where 8 missed attacks will kill them, 8 attacks at 10 damage each and a 50% chance to hit is already pretty much garunteed to kill the PC. So even in your most contrived scenario, damage on a miss doesn't change the results.

4. Any scenario in which you feel 2-3 points of miss damage is bad, is far worse by archers, and exponentially worse from magic missile. An group of 8 level 1 NPC mages is far more likely to cause a TPK than a group of 8 level 1 NPC fighters with damage on a miss. 60 automatic damage that cannot be defended against at all with range of 100 ft is far more potent than 2 to 3 points of miss damage that can only be done in melee.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I don't care what someone else said. If you can't back up claims you make, don't make them.

Identify the claim that you seem to think I am making.

A few things you must note here.

1. NPCs do not get class levels. It is your own choice as a DM to give NPCs class levels.

I find it much easier to make an npc fighter or magic user exactly that instead of doing some type of unique thing every time. I also do not run systems in which a character sheet looks like a tax return.

2. As such, it is also your own choice to give NPCs class features. This means that if you give a NPC damage on a miss, that is your choice to do so. If you do not like damage on a miss, don't give it to your NPCs. It really is that simple.

Certainly. It does stand to reason thus.

3. Damage on a miss from NPCs is also no big deal at all. The reason for this is bounded accuracy. Any NPC who can deal damage on a miss will probably already be hitting 50% of the time anyway. IF you have PCs with 24 HP where 8 missed attacks will kill them, 8 attacks at 10 damage each and a 50% chance to hit is already pretty much garunteed to kill the PC. So even in your most contrived scenario, damage on a miss doesn't change the results.

One does not have to be a math wizard to know a few basic facts about probability. Namely, that having a 100% chance of incoming damage every round is worse than even an 80% of such.

4. Any scenario in which you feel 2-3 points of miss damage is bad, is far worse by archers, and exponentially worse from magic missile. An group of 8 level 1 NPC mages is far more likely to cause a TPK than a group of 8 level 1 NPC fighters with damage on a miss. 60 automatic damage that cannot be defended against at all with range of 100 ft is far more potent than 2 to 3 points of miss damage that can only be done in melee.

Archers? They don't have to get a hit to cause damage now too? Oy vey! A level one mage gets ONE magic missile then he is back to mundane means (Machete don't play pew pew). The fighters OTOH, can just keep grinding away a few points a round each until their target is dead with not a single sucessful attack scored. A for effort fellas. Good job!!!!

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Getting options as a 1st level fighter that are not available to other 1st level fighters makes you an immortal special snowflake.

There. I asked you to show where it says only PC 1st level Fighters get access to these options.

 

[ExploderWizard]

There. I asked you to show where it says only PC 1st level Fighters get access to these options.

I see the confusion. That wasn't a claim as to the content of rules. It was a challenge to the idea that only PCs should have the abilities of various character classes available to them. NPCs may or may not be members of the various PC classes.

Thus the meaning of the statement was that IF ONLY PCs had character class abilities open to them, then yes they would be special widdle snowflakes in that case. In no way did I intend to mean that this was a rule of any kind.

 

[TwoSix]

One does not have to be a math wizard to know a few basic facts about probability. Namely, that having a 100% chance of incoming damage every round is worse than even an 80% of such.

Depends on the damage. 100% chance of 3 damage is much better than 80% of 10 damage.

The real relevant metric is "What is the probability that the damage coming in will kill me this round?" Because every round you live is a round you can change the odds back in your favor. (And may the odds be ever in your favor!) That's why I'd rather face a 100% chance of taking 25% of my hit points in damage each round, rather than a 25% chance of taking 100% of my HP in damage.

 

[Ashkelon]

I
Archers? They don't have to get a hit to cause damage now too? Oy vey! A level one mage gets ONE magic missile then he is back to mundane means (Machete don't play pew pew). The fighters OTOH, can just keep grinding away a few points a round each until their target is dead with not a single sucessful attack scored. A for effort fellas. Good job!!!!

You clearly aren't getting it. What I was refuting was the completely non-sensical statement that because of damage on a miss, 8 low level enemies could easily dispatch mid level PCs who have 20-30 HP.

Well, sure, 8 misses will do 24 damage and take out 1 PC. But due to bounded accuracy, 8 archers will kill 1 PC before the party is all in range to counterattack. 8 wizards will kill the whole party before they are in range to retaliate.

So complaining about auto-miss damage from enemies has to be the dumbest argument one could possibly make about DoaM. There are plently of reasons to dislike it, but the argument I was refuting certainly is not one of them.

 

[ExploderWizard]

You clearly aren't getting it. What I was refuting was the completely non-sensical statement that because of damage on a miss, 8 low level enemies could easily dispatch mid level PCs who have 20-30 HP.

Well, sure, 8 misses will do 24 damage and take out 1 PC. But due to bounded accuracy, 8 archers will kill 1 PC before the party is all in range to counterattack. 8 wizards will kill the whole party before they are in range to retaliate.

So complaining about auto-miss damage from enemies has to be the dumbest argument one could possibly make about DoaM. There are plently of reasons to dislike it, but the argument I was refuting certainly is not one of them.

It is quite easy to dismiss as trivial so long as you are not comparing like to like.

Low level vs low level or mid level vs mid level perhaps?

Are all parties melee only these days? Do player characters not have access to bows? Is every adventuring group at the mercy of archers?

Likewise wizards. You are assuming situations of a party being absolute sitting ducks with no missile/magic capabilities of their own.

 

[Jester David]

I was going to vote on this when I read through the options and decided it was a great way NOT to write a pole. It's extraordinarily biased.

So instead I'll answer the question:
From the OP:

If damage on a miss was included as an optional ability that no character had to choose, would its inclusion cause you to not purchase 5e?

If Damage on a Miss is included as a mechanic as part of the core rules it will make me wary of the game.

I wasted hundreds of dollars on 4e on products that I'll never use again and never got my money's worth from. The spine would still crackle if you opened some of them.
And I have several RPG products I do want to use. I have two Paizo APs I want to get through, and while I could convert one or both to 5e it's significantly easier to run them as is. I'd like to get in a mini-campaign if Shadows of Esteren sometime and once the Fate conversion of Eclipse Phase is released I'd like to give that a go.
Meanwhile, WotC has managed to move D&D from "must buy, sight unseen" to "I'll read some reviews and maybe check out a friend's copy".
Add to this my plan to go to GenCon this year, in the hopes launching a new edition and having the 40th anniversary of D&D will make WotC step up their game and put on a great show. And any money I can save between now and then will help.

I'm already on the fence. While DoaM is just one mechanic, if it's baked into the core rules then there's likely some other stuff I don't want. There'll likely be other assumptions or power design that makes me iffy.
DoaM might become my canary, my quick reference to see if the game is going to be something I'll enjoy or something I'll regret purchasing.