its all in the interpretation

[emanresu]

[h=4]what exactly is your interpretation of the below excerpt, why is this all in bold?

Unique Spells[/h]The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.

this was about the Prest Bard and I suppose would translate to the Pali or the Ranger as well...

1)1 player read this as "we get access to spells from the Bard spell list just as a Bard of current spell caster level would"
2) 2nd player suggested it only means we get access to Bard spells but starting as a 1st level Bard -the 1st level of the prest Bard.
3) and 3rd player/DM thought it meant we could, as an example, cast confusion as a 2nd level spell instead of as a 3rd level. Thusly gaining access to a select few earlier than a wiz/sorc norm would eg a Bard

I agreed with #3 on this one

whats your take / explain if you would be so kind

Eman

 

[Nagol]

[h=4]what exactly is your interpretation of the below excerpt, why is this all in bold?

Unique Spells[/h]The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.

this was about the Prest Bard and I suppose would translate to the Pali or the Ranger as well...

1)1 player read this as "we get access to spells from the Bard spell list just as a Bard of current spell caster level would"
2) 2nd player suggested it only means we get access to Bard spells but starting as a 1st level Bard -the 1st level of the prest Bard.
3) and 3rd player/DM thought it meant we could, as an example, cast confusion as a 2nd level spell instead of as a 3rd level. Thusly gaining access to a select few earlier than a wiz/sorc norm would eg a Bard

I agreed with #3 on this one

whats your take / explain if you would be so kind

Eman

4) For spells that only appear on the Bard list for the PC, the PC gets them placed on his spell list at the same spell level. If the spell already appears on the PC list (say Confusion) then it remains unaffected.

 

[emanresu]

ok

so now there is a forth, and thats actually an alright vantage point. Oh sure I'd want suggestion as a 2nd level spell but like you say if my Beguiler spell list has it as a 3rd level spell, then its no longer unique. either way my spell list just got HUGE...pending interpretation.

 

[Nagol]

so now there is a forth, and thats actually an alright vantage point. Oh sure I'd want confusion as a 2nd level spell but like you say if my Beguiler spell list has it, then its no longer unique. either way my spell list just got HUGE

That's an artefact of the "all spells on the list are automatically known" casting system used by beguilers, war mages, etc. I doubt much thought was given to the newer casting schemes when the prestige class variants were constructed.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Can you point us to the source of this information?

 

[GMMichael]

The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class.

When you take the prestige class, your spell list includes that of the corresponding class (bard, paladin, or ranger) and you gain the ability to cast spells of a given level at the same level that the corresponding class would.

For example, the prestige class corresponding to paladins can cast 4th level paladin spells at the same level that a paladin would - the level where a "0" appears on the spells per day chart, under 4th level spells.

My guess is that the awkward phrasing comes from a different number of spells per day, while the level-of-access remains the same.

 

[delericho]

Unique Spells: The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists.

All of this applies to spells that appear only on the Bard (or Paladin, or Ranger) spell list. A spell like confusion, which is both a Bard 3 and Wizard/Sorcerer 4 spell, isn't affected. (One example of such a spell is lullaby, which is a Bard 0 spell - no other class can cast it.)

In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class.

What this means is that a character with the Prestige Bard class adds any of those unique Bard spells to his existing spell-list at the same level. So, a Wizard 1/Rogue 4/PrBard 1 would treat lullaby as a Wizard 0 spell - he could prepare it in any of his 0-level spell slots.

However, again confusion is not affected - this would still be a 4th level spell for the character. (And, perhaps importantly, that character couldn't cast cure light wounds at all, since that's not a Bard-unique spell either.)

At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.

This is an odd one. Presumably "found in other books" means those Bard-unique spells that appear in the "Spell Compendium", "Complete Adventurer", and basically anything other than the PHB. Given that allowing those books at all (or not) is pretty much the prerogative of the DM anyway, there's no change here - he might make you research or find them individually, or he might give you a free choice.

1)1 player read this as "we get access to spells from the Bard spell list just as a Bard of current spell caster level would"
2) 2nd player suggested it only means we get access to Bard spells but starting as a 1st level Bard -the 1st level of the prest Bard.
3) and 3rd player/DM thought it meant we could, as an example, cast confusion as a 2nd level spell instead of as a 3rd level. Thusly gaining access to a select few earlier than a wiz/sorc norm would eg a Bard

None of the above. A spell that is unique to the Bard (so lullaby, but not confusion or cure light wounds) is treated as a Wizard spell of the same spell level for the Prestige Bard. So, such a character treats lullaby as a Wizard 0 spell.

In the specific case of a Beguiler who becomes a Prestige Bard, the same applies. However, the addition of all these new spellcasters makes finding Bard-unique spells a major hassle (since only the PHB classes are listed for all spells). Here, your DM will need to make a ruling, but my recommendation would be to ignore all the class spell-lists except the Beguiler, and instead go directly to the spell listing. If that listing gives a Bard level but no other (again, see lullaby, then treat it as a Beguiler spell of the same level). The one exception I would make to this is if the spell exists on the Beguiler list at a different level, in which case the character has to stick to that Beguiler level.

(I hope that last makes sense - unfortunately it's pretty convoluted, but I didn't see a way to make it any simpler.)

 

[delericho]

Can you point us to the source of this information?

The Prestige Bard, Paladin, and Ranger appear in "Unearthed Arcana", and also in the SRD.

 

[Nagol]

All of this applies to spells that appear only on the Bard (or Paladin, or Ranger) spell list. A spell like confusion, which is both a Bard 3 and Wizard/Sorcerer 4 spell, isn't affected. (One example of such a spell is lullaby, which is a Bard 0 spell - no other class can cast it.)



What this means is that a character with the Prestige Bard class adds any of those unique Bard spells to his existing spell-list at the same level. So, a Wizard 1/Rogue 4/PrBard 1 would treat lullaby as a Wizard 0 spell - he could prepare it in any of his 0-level spell slots.

However, again confusion is not affected - this would still be a 4th level spell for the character. (And, perhaps importantly, that character couldn't cast cure light wounds at all, since that's not a Bard-unique spell either.)
<snip>

The only concern I'd have with this interpretation are the non-unique spells that do not appear on an arcane list like Cure Light Wounds. Since the purpose of the prestige class is to give a different means to the same end, I'd say those are unique to the Bard list with respect to arcane casting.

 

[delericho]

The only concern I'd have with this interpretation are the non-unique spells that do not appear on an arcane list like Cure Light Wounds. Since the purpose of the prestige class is to give a different means to the same end, I'd say those are unique to the Bard list with respect to arcane casting.

I would disagree, both on the grounds that it says 'unique' rather than 'unique with respect to...', but also because the Prestige Bard necessarily has a whole bunch of other spells not on the Bard spell list (ie all those Wizard spells). So, it's a trade-off - you don't get CLW, but you get magic missile instead.

But, yeah, YMMV and all that.