{Vampire: The Masquerade - OOC} New York by Night

[Yellow Sign]

I am just a Lurker around here and I am sorry if this is not my place to say this but someone just asked if after reading the threads and see if anything was wrong with KitanaVorr's last post.

Well, I can find nothing wrong at all.


My two cents

 

[Shalimar]

Perhaps we can put all this behind us for the moment. I think you are wrong that Vyc is just going to be treated as your wife. She is a person, and if anyone treated me as just an anything I would injure them. I have my own views as I am sure she does. She is not an extension of you. To suggest I would treat someone as less because of her relationships is insulting. I will just believe that I read that statement wrong for my own peace of mind.

The question about Npcs is a valid one, one I would like a little clarification on.

I do have just a few questions about Nikolai if thats ok, if it isn't then ignore what I am about to say. I am just trying to understand:

Is Nikolai suppoused to be mentally retarded in his character history? If yes, then how did he learn so much Thaumatergy so quickly, if he isn't mentally retarded, and he hasn't acted it yet, how can he only have a single dot

I can understand his injury making him physically weak. I don't understand how he could be s o physically weak for a period of 10 years when he was working as a vampire hunter when he clained to have kiled 1 or 2 I am willing to believe he did it on planning, but he isn't the brightest person as it is.

My last question is how he s able to act so buddy buddy with a charisma soo low, is it a side effect of his injury that he is unappealing as a person yet still a nice enough guy?

 

[reapersaurus]

I do have just a few questions about Nikolai if thats ok, if it isn't then ignore what I am about to say. I am just trying to understand:

Is Nikolai suppoused to be mentally retarded in his character history? If yes, then how did he learn so much Thaumatergy so quickly, if he isn't mentally retarded, and he hasn't acted it yet, how can he only have a single dot (in INT, I presume)

I'd be glad to discuss things rationally.
Hell, I'd be overjoyed to actually be able to say what I want to say, since these questions are about MY character.

No, Nik's not retarded, the loss of functioning is more a symbolic loss of humanity.
I'm finishing work now, and will go home and re-read the Intelligence attribute, because I didn't come to the conclusions that Ash seems to hold about the Int attribute.
I never realized it was that character-defining.
If it is, I'll re-visit my attribute points.

I can understand his injury making him physically weak. I don't understand how he could be s o physically weak for a period of 10 years when he was working as a vampire hunter when he clained to have kiled 1 or 2

Vampire Hunters don;t all fight hand-to hand with vampires.
In a strike-type team, you need people of various talents.
I will be replying to Ash similarly re: his post.

My last question is how he s able to act so buddy buddy with a charisma soo low, is it a side effect of his injury that he is unappealing as a person yet still a nice enough guy?

Well, I think your question comes from Ash misrepresenting the stats.

Charisma is not all-important.
In fact, in the V:tM rulebook, it explicitly describes under the Manipulation attribute that characters with high Manip scores can regularly get people to do what they want, even though they don't like them. (or something like that - that's all from memory)

I don't see Nik as being a Charismatic, "you like me, you Really Like Me" guy.
I don't see why Manipulation, Subterfuge, and Wits are nullified by having 1 dot in Int and Cha.
Does every character have to be the same light-and-bubbly, "You must love me" type?

 

[KitanaVorr]

Okay

I will do a post-by-post analysis of all of Reaper's posts if Ash doesn't mind, but I don't want to start a flame war on this thread. Nor do I want to start a flame war through an email either as I am in several games with reaper and would prefer not to start a feud.

Reaper, your response to my question about Vych and Carrick was inappropriate and uncalled for. And this will be the post I will respond to line by line for you.

oh, man - i have a lot of questions, but i can't go into them.
I just want you guys to know that I am now stifling what I post here, because I don't believe that you want to hear my opinion about the characters or the story.[/i]

Since its really only Caitlyn that you have been talking about back there more than any other character I would have to assume that you were refering to our discussion about her. I have never stifled you. You are free to discuss your opinion as I am free to have mine. I am insulted to think that you would think I would stifle anyone's opinion.

I don't think that my words will be construed correctly, or with an open mind,

When have I ever belittled your opinions? I can disagree with you and read your words with an open mind at the same time. Not everyone who reads what you say will agree with you.

so I'm afraid I can't properly answer Ash's observations (believable characters) and questions about Nikolai, or Kitana's question about Vych. (whatever I say might be remembered as "bickering")

Well this part is directed toward Ash so he can answer this.

Vych is on pins and nails herself, believing that you guys are lumping her and me together, in game and out.
Vych doesn't know WHAT to do, and what's allowed, I do know that much.

I know that which is why I asked the question about NPC's earlier. I didn't know if Vych and Ash worked out something whereas she would be able to control Carrick. And Vych has nothing to worry about. We don't lump you two together. I have absolutely nothing against her whatsoever.

My guess is that she took Ash's statements about us players forwarding the story to heart.

Well I can see that part. If she did, its okay then. I don't mind that at all.

Or maybe she's responding to your lead, Kitana... *stifle*

WHAT lead? I can only assume you're talking about me controlling an NPC. I don't recall taking one of the vampires and having them think about me.

Let me put it this way:
Kitana - if you (an ENBoard In-Character veteran) don't take player questions well, why are you asking Vych about her character?

I have been good at responding to all your questions. I have dealt with all your complaints about why my character has a 5 in perform and 5 in appearance just fine. The reason this insults me is because after doing ALL that you think I don't take criticism well?! Why? Because I disagree with you? Because I ask you why you are complaining about my 5's when you have so many of your own? That the hypocrisy that I don't like.

Alright. I hope this satisfies your request. I won't do any more analysis because I'm sure Ash wouldn't want me to keep this up.

As far as I am concerned, this argument is over with. I disagree with you, Reaper. You disagree with me. We will agree to disagree and let the game continue without this mess.

 

[Shalimar]

No, Nik's not retarded, the loss of functioning is more a symbolic loss of humanity.I'm finishing work now, and will go home and re-read the Intelligence attribute, because I didn't come to the conclusions that Ash seems to hold about the Int attribute.
I never realized it was that character-defining.
If it is, I'll re-visit my attribute points.

Ok, I undersand a bit more now, but the loss of humanity is the loss of humanity points. Has nothing to do with intelligence, at least till you get down to 1 or 2.

Also, no one trusts people with high manipulation scores. Thats from the book, couple that with the 1 dot of Charisma...

 

[Ashrem Bayle [Home]]

I'm sorry.

*sigh*

Before I get into this post, I want to offer my sincerest apologies. All of you put a lot of time and effort into your characters. I realize that, and am therefore further shamed for what I am about to do.

Consider the game dissolved.

I play these games to have fun. When they begin to become a source of stress and tension, they are no longer a game but a chore. I’ve read through the above posts and can’t find anything constructive or positive in the whole lot.

Reaper, just judging from your character’s background and character sheet, Nikolai appears to have been the result of pure min-maxing. All of his best scores are tied directly to his disciplines and he is severely lacking in scores that make a great deal of sense for him. I would have never said anything, until you brought the other characters under the microscope. I’m not saying it was wrong to do, but you have to be careful, as people are touchy about characters.

Now. If I misunderstood your character, or your intentions, on whatever level, I am sorry. No hard feelings, lets just let it go.

Kitana & Shalimar:

I understand where you are coming from and I understand why you got offended. The problem with this medium is that it doesn’t convey emotion. I play in a few other games with you Shalimar, and have thus far enjoyed every minute of it.

Kitana, while I am in only one other game with you, I have no reason to think ill of you. I look forward to further gaming with you.

Jemal & Festy

All I can say is that I am sorry. I realize you put a lot of effort into your characters and I know you feel you are being punished for something you could not help. Again I am sorry. I wish there was more I could do.

Vychtorya

First and foremost I would like to say that no one has ANY hard feelings AT ALL toward you. I can say for certain that I do not. I hope this doesn’t ruin your taste for further online gaming.

Again, I’m sorry for the work you feel you wasted on character creation. I hope you can find a use for them somewhere.

If you want to continue on without me, or find another storyteller, by all means, I wish you the best of luck.

 

[KitanaVorr]

I'm truly sorry and I'm sorry for my role in all this. I definitely let my temper get a hold of me near the end there and that probably didn't help at all.

No hard feelings anyone. As far as I am concerned, bygones be bygones.

I had alot of fun in the IC thread while it lasted. Thanks for being patient, Ash.

Cheers all.

 

[Shalimar]

I'm very sorry that it stopped being fun for you Ash, and apologize for what I have done to contribute to the situation. I wish everyone the best in their future games.

I echo Kit's sentiments, Bygones.

I had a lot of fun while it lasted, good luck everyone.

 

[reapersaurus]

I believe I have the right to defend myself when being slandered.

Here's my posts, since I think it's been forgotten what I actually said:

Kitana - I'm kind of confused about your character currently.
(All of this is IMO, and take the observations or ignore tham at your leaisure)

I then went on to point out some very applicable and helpful things, I think.
Kitana, you responded that the things that didn't make sense to me were inspired by YOUR actual life and personality.

Next post, you mentioned things were slow on the weekends.
I had some time on my hands, and interest in the game and our characters, so I posted a opinion about the rolls, to hopefully help explain the dice system in V:tM (many of us playing are new to the system):

Let's look a bit further at the much-maligned Storyteller dice roll mechanic:

How good REALLY is 4 success rolls?

After some ideas exchange, I made sure AGAIN that it was OK to discuss things:

edit: is it OK to use Caitlyn's singing example during a discussion of Vampire rules, and how they have to be carefully approached to properly model what is going on in our party scene?

Then you questioned me about my character:

oh, I have a question about Victoria was she supposed to be sort of equal in talent, etc, to Cate? That's the jist of what I got from your post. And if so, and she was already well-known and stuff with a bodyguard (you) does that mean that your face is a well-known face? A Murder-suicide with celebrities make news.

I responded:

great questions.

Since you mentioned it, I'll address both.

then went on to mention that 9 dice as a human eclipses most vampires, and with a 21 human freebie point system, it makes the Embrace problematic from a character generation standpoint.
All very polite, non-critical, and shared discussion (but I still checked to be absolutely sure you were OK talking about rules and your character: "I'm not making ANY judgments about Caitlyn, or the character sheet - I'm just giving observations about how the game is impacted by rules decisions"

Then your next post kind of confused me.
In it, you posted that you didn't see how Caitlyn affects any of our characters whatsoever, and asked me more direct questions about Nikolai (that were mostly already answered in my story link, even).

I answered your questions, posted the link again, and even said:

(I appreciate the work for my character - discussion is always fun, and helps me flesh him out more in my mind)

I don't see, though, how you could be missing how Caitlyn's skills (and especially attributes) don't affect others in the party.

I went on to describe the ways that 2 Charismatic and Beautiful characters can impact each another's characters.

I'm pretty sure you completely forget me saying this next part (since you accused me of doing exactly this today):

Please you guys, do whatever works in the game and is fun, I'm just responding to what you're saying for some dialogue on the weekend.
Don't read this like I'm pushing for you to do or change anything.

You said:

And there are plenty of different ways to be charismatic and beautiful because everyone is unique.

Besides I originally got the impression that she was going to be seductive older woman archetype.

Then I replied:

There's nothing wrong with 2 beautiful women, that's for damn sure LOL but when 2 people are playing the same instrument, there's only so many notes on the scale, if youknowwhatimean.

And I know you went over your clan ideas - I still don't get how she's anything but Toreador.
I'm sorry. I'm being superficial, because I don't know you, and can't project well to get a good picture of a personality until I see the way you play you.. I mean her (Caitlyn) - damn, it's confusing that you put a lot of yourself in the character of Caitlyn.

to which you answered:

Besides, it doesn't bother me at all if Vych is high up on charisma and appearance at all so why should it matter?

So unless it bothers Vych, let us play the characters we want to play and SHUSH =P reaper shush.

Later, Vych added her thoughts, playfully.

Then you kind of went off a bit on me, methinks:

LOL okay my turn for a long rant. What? I have 2 for every 5 reaper puts in, hehe

Well for starters with all this talk, Cate is still human and she'll be human for a while as far as I know unless Ash has something in mind.

I'm also more of a roleplaying person and less of a dice person. So having dice to back me up is nice, but I'm counting more on my ability to invoke the correct response with my writing. I've never played Vampire before so I don't really understand what the problems are with it all.

Also about him talking to you about stats, he'd have better luck convincing you about yours than me cuz I'm not the wife and honestly he's got no pull over me whatsoever, hehe. Besides I've never had a chance to play Cate before whereas you've already played Vych before.

Anyway, if Ash thought there would be a problem, he would have said something before we were so invested in it all. So I'm guessing its all okee dokee.

I don't mind discussing characters and things like that but if he wants to truly be fair, he needs to bring up Vych as part of the "inequality" or whatever exactly he's referring to instead of basically saying "Vych can't do this because of Cate".

Well, frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

I responded, already censoring myself because I could tell your hackles were unnecessarily raising:

you're more than welcome to rant, but that post left me a bit confused.
I read it 3 times, but I just didn't get the gist of what you're saying.

not that that matters, mind you, i just thought i'd let you know....

I don't know of too many people that concentrate on the rules too much - maybe because they get in the way of the kinds of stories that people want to tell, and characters that people want to play?

I think I'm going to throw away the rulebook for this game.

I think the In-Character thread is quite stunning so far, so the rules don't matter - let's just keep with the creative writing -
Kitana - the interspersing of very-appropriate lyrics with your characters thoughts was impressive.

you responded:

Don't bug me about Cate's stats interfering with Vych's stats, bug Vych about her stats interfering with Cate's stats. You'll get more headway with her than you'll ever get with me.

I see your points, but I completely disagree with your end assessment about how Cate and Vych sharing similiar interests or attributes would be detrimental to the game in any way.

I don't mind discussing characters, but I dislike it when people complain that my choice of character might disrupt their fun.

Vych and Cate are unique characters.

And yes, if you stick your head in the rules too much you forget to enjoy the game so just enjoy it! And let the story take you where it wants to take you.

Hopefully everyone, including you, is beginning to see a pattern here.
I politely discuss things of a (IMO) undeniably helpful, engaging content, then you take things personally, or defensively, or something.

I don't know.... I don't see how you could possibly have taken what I posted and remembered it as you have today, magnifying it into a personal attack on you, with me being a hypocrite that is needing you to change your character?
huh?

So at this point, I could see you were going the wrong direction with the day's vampire discussion, and bowed out.

You then replied to my well-taken response to Shalimar re: Sabrina with :

I think me, Jemal, Shalimar went the route of making our stats fit our character ideas rather than trying to figure out how to make them the most powerful.

I hope I didn't start all this by giving her the two 5's.

So here you began to paint me in your mind and words as a munchkin who only cares about stats with Nikolai, while simultaneously remembering that I called you on your two 5 scores.

I never did.

 

[reapersaurus]

So today Ash starts out questioning me about Nikolai and stats.
This would have been a welcome discussion, and after I looked up the Intelligence attribute tonight, I realized that while 1 dot doesn't hamper Nikolai like Ash believes (IMO), I realized that a high Int and not Wits would better fit Nikolai.

So I would have changed Nik's Intelligence to better suit him, and address Ash's concerns.

That's what reasonable discussion gets you - an exchange of ideas, and a better character in the end.

I'm confident that if I'd been able to explain to Ash how Nik is not a physical threat anymore, and my choice of skills, we would have gotten that straightened out with no worries.

Now that I've read that Ash has decided to back out, I'd politely ask that he reconsider.

I'm serious - Ash, if you read my last post, I'm confident that everyone can see that Kitana basically went off on me, and painted me unfairly, repeatedly magnifying the discussion needlessly.

Now I'm purposely phrasing it like that, because EVEN IF SHE DID I HOLD NOTHING AGAINST HER.

As she said earlier, she doesn't mind a little row (in character).

I don't mind having (out of character) passioned replies about a game that we all care about , even if I'm unfairly painted as a munchkin, attacking fiend who single-handedly destroys roleplay.

Ash (and everyone) : for my part, I'm sorry about how this turned out.
I don't think Shalimar should be sorry for anything.

Ash - with proper distance, I hope you see that calling this game off is a little premature.
I'd hope that you change your mind about leading this group, as long as Kitana doesn't have a problem with playing in a game with me.

If so, I volunteer to bow out, since I'm obviously perceived as being the only problem, so if I'm gone, why wouldn't you continue for these guys?

Please don't leave them high and dry, unless there's some OTHER reason other than my stirring things up to stop the game.

What I'd really like to see is how you get the group of different vampires together to do anything as a coterie.

I have never seen that in V:tM, and would love if you could get them together and run them thru some scenes where they could work together to accomplish something that vampires care about.
I have no idea what that might be, but I've always been baffled about how and why vampires would become a coterie.

Just have Nikolai encounter The HeartBreaker tonight, and he won't have ammassed enough power yet to exact his revenge...