{Vampire: The Masquerade - OOC} New York by Night

[Ashrem Bayle]

Reaper

Either way is fine. If you have been with him, it was only once and you guys didn't talk much.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

While we are analyzing characters, I noticed a problem with Nikolai.

His stats don't seem to match his concept very well.

He has a Strength and Stamina of 1. Thats not very good for a bodyguard. Especially considering that the average Joe has 2. Any kind of physical confrontation is going end badly for you.

As a matter of fact, based solely on physical stats, Sabrina could beat you up.

Also, your Intelligence. Nikolai has below average Intelligence. I can't see why any vampire (especially the Tremere) would embrace someone who is considered dumb by normal standards.

If I remember correctly, 1 dot in Int equels an IQ of about 80. Thats somewhere in the region of Forest Gump.

To be honest, I can't see why Qadir would have you on his patrols. The man respects physical ability and brains, two areas Nikolai is severely lacking in. On top of that, your charisma (1 dot)isn't going to be a lot of help convencing him of your other skills.

Normally I wouldn't allow you to make changes to your character after the game has begun, but I don't see how he is going to be playable with this concept and these scores.

My apologies for not catching this sooner.

 

[reapersaurus]

(I've only got a minute to type this out, but)
I designed a character that USED to be physical.
He's not a bodyguard anymore.
He hasn't used his physical skills per se for over 10 years.
In fact, in the backstory, his injury hints that there is a loss of some functioning.

This was replaced with the desire to acquire power, and use manipluation and subterfuge to get what he wants.

To point out Intelligence and charisma as the only attributes that are important is a bit misleading, i think.

Qadir would be very myopic if he only concentrates on physical or charismatic strengths in evaluating someone.
In fact, I think it's kind of ironic that you're pointing out Nikolai's inability to physically defend himself when I'm the only one that has pointed out our whole group's inability to defend themselves.

I thought we weren't concentrating on the realisticness of our characters?
If so, than there are many problems with believability - I THOUGHT the group concensus was to concentrate on story, and character interaction.

But his concept is someone who USED to be physical, and has now supplanted that with a purely knowledge-based power source - outwitting (see his Wits, etc) the opponent and manipulating them into blunting their attack, not taking it head-on.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

(I've only got a minute to type this out, but)
I designed a character that USED to be physical.
He's not a bodyguard anymore.
He hasn't used his physical skills per se for over 10 years.
In fact, in the backstory, his injury hints that there is a loss of some functioning.

Your backstory said that he had a background in martial arts. After building your muscles to a good level, even day to day physical activities will keep them from degrading that far.

I could see it if you had had a bad bout with cancer or something though.

This was replaced with the desire to acquire power, and use manipluation and subterfuge to get what he wants.

To point out Intelligence and charisma as the only attributes that are important is a bit misleading, i think.

I never said that they where the only things that where important. Perception measures your ability to notice things, which you do VERY well. Wits is the measure of how long it takes you to react to something. You also do this VERY well. Intelligence measures how good your response is.

With your stats, you are VERY good at realizing something is wrong, but have no clue as to handle it.

Qadir would be very myopic if he only concentrates on physical or charismatic strengths in evaluating someone.

Myopic? Maybe he is. Qadir is very physical. While he would respect other forms of combat, such as magic, your low charisma isn't capable of convencing him to change his opinion. If he spends any time around you, he will realize you are incapable of formulating any real tactics as well.

In fact, I think it's kind of ironic that you're pointing out Nikolai's inability to physically defend himself when I'm the only one that has pointed out our whole group's inability to defend themselves.

I don't care if they can't defend themselves physically. That isn't the point at all. They didn't come from a background as a martial artist and bodyguard. I get the impression that as a hunter, he used his physical abilities. He went straight from being a hunter to the embrace right? Muscles do not deteriorate after the Embrace.

My point is that I can't see your body atrophying so much in such a short period of time. He was obviously in good shape for a while and, short of sickness, your body will not break down that fast. Normal everyday movement will keep you above a strength of 1 for a long time if you where ever in fairly good shape (2 or 3).

I thought we weren't concentrating on the realisticness of our characters?
If so, than there are many problems with believability - I THOUGHT the group concensus was to concentrate on story, and character interaction.

Maybe I just missed it, I admit I didn't follow the bickering earlier too close, but when did we throw realism to the curb? I don't have a problem with suspending disbelief for a little while, this is a game about vampires after all.

The problem arrises when you start having to roll dice. You are simply incapable of doing many of the things that your background would suggest you would be at least fairly good at.

But his concept is someone who USED to be physical, and has now supplanted that with a purely knowledge-based power source - outwitting (see his Wits, etc) the opponent and manipulating them into blunting their attack, not taking it head-on.

As it stands, you aren't able to do that. You are incapable of formulating detailed plans. You will almost certainly realize that you are in danger. You will even be able to react to it VERY quickly. But you want know HOW to effectivly react.

 

[KitanaVorr]

I have a question.

I thought that we could only control our PC's and that we couldn't control any of NPC's like how Vych can control Carrick? Or is Vych playing both Carrick and Vych?

 

[reapersaurus]

oh, man - i have a lot of questions, but i can't go into them.
I just want you guys to know that I am now stifling what I post here, because I don't believe that you want to hear my opinion about the characters or the story.

I don't think that my words will be construed correctly, or with an open mind, so I'm afraid I can't properly answer Ash's observations (believable characters) and questions about Nikolai, or Kitana's question about Vych. (whatever I say might be remembered as "bickering")

Vych is on pins and nails herself, believing that you guys are lumping her and me together, in game and out.
Vych doesn't know WHAT to do, and what's allowed, I do know that much.
My guess is that she took Ash's statements about us players forwarding the story to heart.
Or maybe she's responding to your lead, Kitana... *stifle*

Let me put it this way:
Kitana - if you (an ENBoard In-Character veteran) don't take player questions well, why are you asking Vych about her character?

 

[KitanaVorr]

Whoa reaper, where did that come from?

Let's get some points straight:

1. I'm not asking Vych about her character. I'm asking Ash if its okay for us to play other NPC's and what his rules are on those.

2. I don't mind criticism of my PC, not at all. You can say whatever it is you want about Caitlyn, yada yada, etc.

What I DO mind is when you complain to me about Caitlyn's stats but you don't address Vych's or yours at all.

I was fine with you discussing why Cate has a 5 in this and a 5 in that...but then LO and BEHOLD I glance at your character sheets and see a 5's EVERYWHERE!!! I despise hypocrisy.

What I DO mind is that you get upset if you can' convince me that you're right and keep repeating the same argument over and over as if repeating yourself will change my mind.

Wake up reaper. I'm not weakminded. I will disagree with you if I think you're wrong and you're just going to have to accept that I disagree.

3. I don't remember EVER taking an NPC and saying what they thought or doing their actions for them. I don't remember taking over Valentine's actions at all. So don't say that Vych followed MY lead.

4. Reaper, it normally takes alot to piss me off, but you are getting really close to it right now. I dislike the min-maxing you're doing with your characters, but I accept that Ash wouldn't have let you in the game with a character he didn't approve of. But apparently, you wouldn't let it go even when I told you that I liked her the way she was and even tried to explain to you about why I choose the stats I did.

5. There is a difference between helping someone with character development and basically pounding down on them to try and change their character.

6. I can separate IC and OOC. Your insinuation that I can't do that insults me and I feel that insult deeply. Your insinuation that I can't take criticism well after I have born your innumerable impolite posts about Caitlyn insults me.

If that was what you intended, consider me gravely insulted.

 

[reapersaurus]

i dare anyone to read the threads and tell kitana how many things are wrong with what she just posted.

 

[reapersaurus]

i can't - i REPEAT! - I can't respond because _I_ will be branded as trying to cause problems, or getting in people's faces, or something.

If you REALLY think that I've been trying to cause problems, maybe you should read what I wrote again : I was obviously trying to understand our characters better, and trying to help with the system.

If you REALLY think I got in anyone's face, than maybe you should read what I wrote again: I have been hands-off, and serving what I've phrased on a platter so that the reader could take what they wished, and no more.

If you REALLY think that I've been impolite or attacking in any way, shape or form, than please quote me and we can discuss it - if you REALLY want to discuss things.
Unless you quote properly, than you can not wave your hand and state unequivocably that I've done those things -
people normally don't get away with making up stuff IRL without having proof - why should they on the internet?

I'd encourage Vych in posting her side of things, but she's afraid (probably wisely) that it doesn't matter what she says - she'll only be viewed as "the wife".

 

[reapersaurus]

Let's get some points straight:

2.
4.
5.

those are really the same point, and i think we should discuss that when i get some time.
I'd recommend re-reading my posts to you re: Caitlyn.

3. I'll leave for Vych - as I said, I stifled myself.

And I'd suggest to re-read most everything before responding.
I really don't think you're responding to what's been said, per se, as much as you're responding to how you're taking it.
What else explains you posting all that from me saying :

Or maybe she's responding to your lead, Kitana... *stifle*

Let me put it this way:
Kitana - if you (an ENBoard In-Character veteran) don't take player questions well, why are you asking Vych about her character?

edit: Go back and read Shalimar's response to my post re: Sabrina - now THAT'S someone taking player questions well.
I gave my personal questions and observations about her character, and she responded impersonally and helped me understand Sabrina more.
I talked to her exactly as I spoke to you - I don't think she was "greatly insulted", or felt that I was trying to force her to change her character...
but I wouldn't dare put words in someone's mouth.
Shalimar could tell you whether or not she thought i was "critical" of her.