Devil worship as a brand

[gamerprinter]

I hate to constantly run back to my published setting, as if to constantly pimp it out of context (I'm not, and feel my setting caters towards this idea of an adult game moreso than other published settings), however, with Kaidan the setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) the goal has constantly been to present the older, more authentic Japanese folklore and horror tropes that are less familiar to the average non-Asian influenced gamer. Kaidan is intended to be more of an adult setting, expecially with its dark, cosmicly horrific nuances. Because it is based on older Japanese lore, and not the stuff you see in anime movies, it is essentially unfamiliar territory, in many ways alien to how the same concepts are presented in western cultures.

Issues like suicide, social inequality, slavery, racial prejudice, an afterlife that offers no means of spiritual escape are all encountered and woven together into a greater whole, that emulates the fact that ancient Japan was more a police state than a story-book exploration of Asian myth.

An esoteric addition to the setting focuses on the point that if one does not achieve enlightenment (Nirvana) spiritually that forced reincarnation is the spiritual way of things. Because Kaidanese reincarnation involves spiritual possession by the recently dead onto the unsuspecting living, the twist on reincarnation in Kaidan is a very dark concept, darker than any other cultural imaginings of what reincarnation really means.

On the surface, its a typical Japan analog setting, and fits into expected concepts of that which was presented in earlier editions of Oriental Adventures, but unseen layers beneath reveal that Kaidan is far more Ravenloftian, and moreso disturbing than any expectation of fantasy Japan.

One of our one-shot modules, Up from Darkness, really focuses in disturbing choices that isn't revealed until the modules end - a venture into the very dark aspects of Kaidan renincarnation that begins with a mass suicide (with subterfuge isn't revealed until the end of the module).

I, however, cannot claim that because of Kaidan's delving to adult dark fantasy is the reason for its great success, really its got a fanbase, albeight a small one, but I think if more people explore its concepts, the potential for wider reaching success and being attractive to younger players is there, if only more people actually look at it.

 

[MarkB]

Now, my point wasn't so much that. It was that when I was the kid that WotC is trying to attract, I was attracted to D&D precisely because it wasn't aimed at my age group. So yes, they need to address that age group, the teens - but I wonder if a good way to do that is to make the product a slightly forbidden fruit. Everyone at my school watched Robocop. And we liked AD&D because it was grown-up.

It sounds like a plan with a lot of potential for shooting oneself in the foot. These days, kids being attracted to an adult-oriented entertainment is likely to raise concerns both deeper and less easily dismissed than notions of 'real' magic or devil worship.

 

[Umbran]

That's a very good point, and probably describes what I mean more succinctly!

In the past, TSR did pretty much what you expect - to attract boys, they had some suggestive and cheesecake art, for example. That won't fly these days.

 

[DMZ2112]

In the past, TSR did pretty much what you expect - to attract boys, they had some suggestive and cheesecake art, for example. That won't fly these days.

Perspective is a funny thing. In Larry Elmore's 2013 career retrospective, he recalls that the TSR art directors in the 1980s were actually very clear that female characters in D&D art were supposed to be "girl next door" types, with little revealing clothing and no exaggerated body proportions.

 

[Umbran]

Perspective is a funny thing. In Larry Elmore's 2013 career retrospective, he recalls that the TSR art directors in the 1980s were actually very clear that female characters in D&D art were supposed to be "girl next door" types, with little revealing clothing and no exaggerated body proportions.

I'm thinking more about the 70s era stuff. Say, the succubus in the MM?

 

[Celebrim]

Perspective is a funny thing. In Larry Elmore's 2013 career retrospective, he recalls that the TSR art directors in the 1980s were actually very clear that female characters in D&D art were supposed to be "girl next door" types, with little revealing clothing and no exaggerated body proportions.

By the time the '80's rolled around, Tracy Hickman had pursued the management of TSR that they needed to do more sensitive 'comic book code' art. Larry Elmore's works are represented from about 1982 to 1987, and in particular he's most noted for work on the Dragon Lance line. This work had a very different feel than the illustrations used in the 1e DMG, MM1, and modules published around those times. Compare with art from modules like B4, I2, I4, U2 and so forth from when Elmore is starting work. Compare art from MM1 with art from MM2, or the DMG to UA. Things had already gotten better by then.

As for the concept of growing the adult audience, I feel that if an adult has not retained knowledge of how to be playful into adulthood, it will be virtually impossible to cultivate that knowledge in an adult. There are relatively few adults you are ever going to pull into the game that aren't already gamers, and frankly that group is beyond the reach of any sort of marketing. The only way that group gets pulled in is through peers (and then, rarely).

To grow the game you have to do two things:

1) Cultivate interest in the hobby by the 'young' by way of exposure to things naturally of interest to them.
2) Increase the number of GMs wanting to run your game.

Pazio is great at the second, but as of yet hasn't managed to reach into the first area. Current WotC sucks at both. TSR was great at both for most of its history, but really dropped the ball on the second point in the late 90's (which was lethal when combined with general economic mismanagement).

 

[DMZ2112]

I'm thinking more about the 70s era stuff. Say, the succubus in the MM?

You know, I've never for a minute considered that those books were marketed to anyone under the age of 20?

 

[pickin_grinnin]

You realize that the average age of a Paizo Dragon or Dungeon reader was about 22 right? That was in 2006. DnD has never been marketed as an adult pastime.

It has never been marketed to a specific age group, but their primary customer base is adults, and has been for a very long time now.

 

[pickin_grinnin]

I, however, cannot claim that because of Kaidan's delving to adult dark fantasy is the reason for its great success

That's why I bought it.

 

[pickin_grinnin]

The reason I'm so skeptical of how well they will be able to market the brand to non-gamers is because they have tried doing it before, more than once. It has never really worked, because they don't really have a strong, well-defined world or characters that would appeal to the general masses, of any age. The D&D movie tanked, the cartoon didn't do anything to draw in hordes of kids, the toy lines have never done as well as ones that revolve around characters drawn from movie or book settings, etc. TSR couldn't pull it off, and WotC couldn't. Maybe Hasbro can, but I don't have much faith in that.

If they came up with a realm, made it very unique and interesting, and focused their marketing efforts on it, it might be a different story. You can effectively create a brand around a fictional world and characters, if they aren't seen as stereotypical and derivative. D&D isn't a brand that revolves around one particular realm, though, and most of the ones they have developed are just not that interesting to the general public.