Agamon
Adventurer
When new editions are on the horizon, most threads could come with the sub-title, "Much Ado About Nothing."
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D&D 5E The cost of D&D 5E (it ain't so bad!)
- Thread starter Mercurius
- Start date
When new editions are on the horizon, most threads could come with the sub-title, "Much Ado About Nothing."
Thaumaturge
Wandering. Not lost. (He/they)
When new editions are on the horizon, most threads could come with the sub-title, "Much Ado About Nothing."
The way people sometimes act here, I can't help but wonder if "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" to upset them.
Thaumaturge.
ShadowDenizen
Explorer
To be fair, everyone deals with change differently; what seems like a "Tempest in a Tea-Cup" to you might seem extremely important to the person who made the posting.
And ESPECIALLY where money is involved, as everyone is obviously not on the same rungs of the socio-economc ladder. A differnece between $20, $30, and $50 might mean the difference between a paricular person buying a new edition or not.
But delericho brought up an interesting question...
WHily it may not necessarily impact their bottom line, it may impact them in a myriad of other, smaller ways. And it also begs the question "As the Industry Leader, how responsible is WotC for being the standard-bearer of the RPG community?" [While that question is subjective, and may not have a definitive answer, it's worht thinking about.]
Depeneding on what you think of that question... IMO, Wizards should care what Amazon charges inasmuch that it could potetnially hurt their relationship with brick & mortar stores, which is potential goldmine for recruting new players. (I know that many will say "Wizards is a business; tehir only responsibilty is the bottom line", and I understand that; but they're also stewards of a valuable property, and over the years they have been eroding much of the goodwill that the community offered them over the years.)
So why not (within the no-doubt stringet guideline Hasbro Corporate sets for them) give back to the fans in a tangible way? (And it sounds like pricing is still in flux, and will be until the day the books hit shelves.)
And ESPECIALLY where money is involved, as everyone is obviously not on the same rungs of the socio-economc ladder. A differnece between $20, $30, and $50 might mean the difference between a paricular person buying a new edition or not.
But delericho brought up an interesting question...
WHily it may not necessarily impact their bottom line, it may impact them in a myriad of other, smaller ways. And it also begs the question "As the Industry Leader, how responsible is WotC for being the standard-bearer of the RPG community?" [While that question is subjective, and may not have a definitive answer, it's worht thinking about.]
Depeneding on what you think of that question... IMO, Wizards should care what Amazon charges inasmuch that it could potetnially hurt their relationship with brick & mortar stores, which is potential goldmine for recruting new players. (I know that many will say "Wizards is a business; tehir only responsibilty is the bottom line", and I understand that; but they're also stewards of a valuable property, and over the years they have been eroding much of the goodwill that the community offered them over the years.)
So why not (within the no-doubt stringet guideline Hasbro Corporate sets for them) give back to the fans in a tangible way? (And it sounds like pricing is still in flux, and will be until the day the books hit shelves.)
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Mishihari Lord
First Post
They don't necessarily get the same amount of money from Amazon. It is legal and common to offer volume discounts to distributors, and Amazon is certainly large enough to demand and receive them.
Like it or not WOTC will be able to charge a premium for their game. It is a brand that has value and they will charge for that value, they also understand that they have a nostalgia factor for a large part of their customer base; there's some value in that too they can leverage. Looking at my own cost comparisons I calculate about a 10 - 20% premium for DnD5e over some of the games I'd play instead, I think this is inline with the brands value. Granted this isn't counting fun products like Fate Core or Dungeon World. I didn't count those because for my main group those aren't games they'd consider substitute products as long term alternatives. If the rate at which the $150 DnD All Access pass sold out at Gen Con is any indicator I think the books would sell well at the $50 price point; at the discounts that Amazon is selling they will fly off the shelves. I'll also suspect that when FLGS that can release before the street date will likely sell out at the MSRP price with no problems at all.
Gil
Gil
sunshadow21
Explorer
Sustainability will be the real question though. Anyone who doesn't expect them to sell well initially is kidding themselves, but long term sales will depend in part on those that do see Fate or Dungeon World as legitimate campaign alternatives, especially as a second or third campaigns when they want a break from their main campaign for a bit. For those who know they want to play this next edition as their primary campaign, price is not and would never have been an issue; WotC's problem is that they lost a lot of these people a long time ago, a process that started in the late 3.5 era, sped up early on in 4E's cycle, and has surely accelerated in the last few years of not having any new product out there. At this point, a lot of people may be willing to consider it as an option to play alongside other games, but are not going to be all that eager to play it and just it, and this is where that high of a price point could come back to haunt them. For this crowd, $150 for a complete game, or even the discounts Amazon can sell them for, is going to be enough to raise the question of whether or not the brand name is itself worth the cost; from what I've seen, the content, while very solid, is not going so fantastic or unique that it's going to convince that many people who have already turned to other games to do more than buy the PHB out of curiosity and suddenly drop whatever they switched to and invest in the full system. Using Gen Con passes as an argument is weak because the people who buy those tend to be the core audience that WotC had from day 1 anyway. Their challenge is that outside of those willing to drop the money to go to conventions like that, their core audience is not what it used to be, and their lack of active support for 4E in the last several years has only sped up the exodus to other games.
They still have a solid brand, but I think the assumption that people will flock back to it because it's D&D is going to turn out badly for them; an initial spike and than a 4E like fall off is far more likely. Outside of the remaining core group, it's going to be hard to convince people to drop everything else and return to the D&D fold on a full time basis, and putting that high of a price on not just the core books, but the adventures, and presumably, later products as well, is going to limit those that are willing to pick it up as a part time campaign. The price by itself will not be a killer, but unless it's coupled with a system that has every aspect completely blow it's competition out of the water, something highly unlikely, it's not going to help win back lost supporters and restrengthen the brand, and that is where WotC is going to run into trouble, not the people that plan out trips to Gen Con a year in advance.
I agree with you that the real question is sustainability and not pricing. It'll be interesting on how wotc keeps the momentum moving forward. My gaming has evolved from buying all the splat books that have come out to buying the core books and then buying a splat here or there from wotc or a another publisher if it piqued my interest. My players are usually the ones buying the splat books as their interests met. So how wotc addresses that and influences similar buying habits will be important. It's my gut feeling that wotc will be able to reclaim a significant number of customers that took on other games during 4e and entice them to buy dnd books again; they don't necessarily need to quit the games they have to do this either, I don't see it as a zero sum game. They won't get them all back for sure but I between think new customers and recapturing old customers is going to give them a positive net gain in their customer base. How they keep them is going to be critical.
My gen con statement wasn't meant as an argument of sustainability, growing market, or long term success but just one of the indicators that I think points towards a successful launch and a sell through of their initial product release and that price isn't their barrier to entry with their consumers for the core 3. I do however agree with you on price being a concern for other products moving forward even if they are all hardback I really don't like paying $30 or more for accessory books. I also don't think they need to absolutely blow the competition out of the water to sell books in the long run. Almost every gamer I know has multiple systems on their shelf and by no means requires a game to be a fulltime commitment to buy the books, even if DnD is their groups 2nd or 3rd game of choice. So far I Wotc doesn't appear to be taking the attitude that customers will come back just because it's DnD. I think they learned from their 4e folly, I feel that was the exact attitude they had with 4e and it didn't prove out then. 4e just wasn't DnD to a lot of people. My hope is that 5e will recapture the "magic" of DnD and the execution for making the game flexible for a lot of different game play style proves out. That will bring more people in and keep their sales steady. If gamers at large see 5e as not DnD then Wotc is in trouble with their DnD brand for sure because it will likely further erode their core customer base and we'll see that slumping line after initial sales that you mentioned. Up hill battle? Yes but I think they can do it.
My gen con statement wasn't meant as an argument of sustainability, growing market, or long term success but just one of the indicators that I think points towards a successful launch and a sell through of their initial product release and that price isn't their barrier to entry with their consumers for the core 3. I do however agree with you on price being a concern for other products moving forward even if they are all hardback I really don't like paying $30 or more for accessory books. I also don't think they need to absolutely blow the competition out of the water to sell books in the long run. Almost every gamer I know has multiple systems on their shelf and by no means requires a game to be a fulltime commitment to buy the books, even if DnD is their groups 2nd or 3rd game of choice. So far I Wotc doesn't appear to be taking the attitude that customers will come back just because it's DnD. I think they learned from their 4e folly, I feel that was the exact attitude they had with 4e and it didn't prove out then. 4e just wasn't DnD to a lot of people. My hope is that 5e will recapture the "magic" of DnD and the execution for making the game flexible for a lot of different game play style proves out. That will bring more people in and keep their sales steady. If gamers at large see 5e as not DnD then Wotc is in trouble with their DnD brand for sure because it will likely further erode their core customer base and we'll see that slumping line after initial sales that you mentioned. Up hill battle? Yes but I think they can do it.
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sunshadow21
Explorer
Most systems aren't charging $50 for just 1/3 of the core game either, or $30 for an adventure. Even after Amazon's discounts, a lot of systems don't even begin to approach the price of what they would pay for these books. Granted, quality and quantity are not as high with most systems, but for second or third choices of games, quantity is much less of an issue, and quality, while not at the level of D&D, is still more than adequate to enjoy an occasional game. This is where WotC may have steepened their already up hill battle. At some point, cost will always be an issue, and WotC has priced their product so that it becomes an issue sooner rather than later.
nerfherder
Adventurer
Well, the price of the free Basic PDF looks pretty affordable! 
