Spell interruption rules in AD&D (and evasion/pursuit rules)


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Heh, looking at just JRRNeiklot and MerricB we see completely different interpretations of something as basic as initiative which has all sorts of implications on the game.

I've come to realise that the D&D I played from about 1980 to 1990 may have used D&D books on the table, but, it only tangentially resembled the actual rules in those books. :D

Agreed.

It seems most games in that era were played by social contract rather than by the impenetrable rulebooks.

Nevertheless, I am grateful for Gary's inability to craft a cogent, coherent, functional set of rules because it made mastering contract law and certain specialist finance disciplines a lot easier.
 


[MENTION=3586]MerricB[/MENTION] - Eldritch Wizardry doesn't come out of your analysis looking particularly good.

The problem with the "spells begin on the 1st to 4th segment" idea, for me at least, is that a really quick combatant can end up being too fast to interrupt a spell - which is pretty ludicrous in my view.

Rolemaster has spells taking multiple rounds to cast, and being vulnerable to interruption while being cast. I don't mind this in principle, although in practice it can produce (i) book-keeping and (ii) boring rounds.
 

[MENTION=3586]MerricB[/MENTION] - Eldritch Wizardry doesn't come out of your analysis looking particularly good.

No, it doesn't. It's basically someone inventing Car Wars' impulse system but not actually putting in all the bits or properly thinking about it!

The problem with the "spells begin on the 1st to 4th segment" idea, for me at least, is that a really quick combatant can end up being too fast to interrupt a spell - which is pretty ludicrous in my view.

I completely agree!

Rolemaster has spells taking multiple rounds to cast, and being vulnerable to interruption while being cast. I don't mind this in principle, although in practice it can produce (i) book-keeping and (ii) boring rounds.

Rolemaster takes a lot of the ideas introduced in D&D (armour vs weapon, spell casting times, etc.) cleans them up and shows what happens when they're all in the system together. The result is often not pretty. There are some great moments in Rolemaster, but it's never been a system I've wanted to play a lot of; probably because I mainly want to play heroic systems!

Cheers!
 

The biggest problem AD&D has is that it was, at no point during its writing, a complete system. Both the Monster Manual and Player's Handbook get away with a lot because Gygax isn't trying to explain how the rules actually work. There are hints, but the actual systems are meant on the DMG. Which then doesn't actually give most of the systems in a coherent form.

When I started playing in junior high, I think what you're describing must have been a feature not a bug. I read the books and felt like I was catching glimpses of truth. That if I read more, I would finally understand. It did fantastic things for my Sense of Wonder and what not.

It... does not sound like a game I'd want to play now. :.-(

Thaumaturge.
 

I've been using the ADDICT system, but after reading this thread I had another look at the combat chapter and I think I've figured it out!

The rule on p 65 is used when the combatant attacking the caster does not have a weapon. The rule on p 67 is used instead when they do.

Spellcasters do NOT simply begin casting at the beginning of the round, and then the spells goes off at the end of the casting time. The time at which the caster begins casting depends on the initiative dice, and then completes after the casting time in segments. This seems very clear looking at p 65: "Their commencement [of spell casting in melee] is dictated by initiative determination as with other attack forms, but their culmination is subject to the stated casting time. Both commencement and/or completion can occur simultaneously with missile discharge..."

The rule on p 65 for attacks without weapons says "Attacks directed at spell casters will come on that segment of the round shown on the opponent's or on their own side's initiative die, whichever is applicable" because the attacker may have to wait for the caster to start casting before interrupting them. Here's where I extrapolate a bit but...the caster begins casting on the segment of their opponent's initiative die roll, and finishes after an additional number of segments equal to the casting time of the spell. If the attacker loses initiative, their attack comes on the segment equal to the caster's die roll (the higher die roll), and they therefore have a chance to interrupt if the difference between the initiative dice is less than the casting time of the spell (ie if the caster's initiative die < attacker's initiative die + casting time). If the attacker wins initiative, they go on the segment of their own die roll (because they're waiting for the caster to begin casting) and they always get a chance to interrupt (because the caster will take at least one more segment to complete the spell).

The rule on p 66-67 assumes that attackers with weapons also always get a chance to interrupt if they win initiative and the rule is meant to give them a chance when they lose it (ie the losing die roll will always be the attacker's). This isn't stated clearly anywhere but I'm going with it based on the fact that the example given assumes the attacker lost initiative and twice refers to the attacker as "reacting" in this situation. This rule does NOT use the initiative dice to determine at what segment the attack comes (it just says "the blow...[arrives] either as the spell is begun or during the first segment of its casting". Using the unmodified speed factor when initiative is tied is weird, but slightly less so when you consider the symmetry with the procedure for deciding ties between two weapon-using combatants (if both combatants have weapons, SF vs. SF; if one is a caster, SF vs. casting time).

Putting things together:

Spell casters complete a spell after a number of segments equal to their opponent's initiative roll plus the spell's casting time.

Attackers have a chance to disrupt if they win initiative (the attack comes when the caster just begins casting, therefore on the segment equal to their own initiative roll).

If the attacker loses initiative, they still have a chance to disrupt. If they do not have a weapon their attack comes at the segment equal to the caster's initiative roll, and can disrupt if the caster is still casting at this time (ie if the casting time of the spell plus the attacker's initiative roll is greater than the caster's initiative roll). If the attacker has a weapon, then they have a chance to disrupt if the difference between their losing die roll and their weapon's speed factor is less than the spell's casting time. If so, the attack is assumed to arrive just after the caster begins casting.

Missile weapons use the p 65 procedure, but modified by the attacker's Dex Reaction/Initiative mod. So a missile firer with really good Dexterity (and unencumbered, see PHB 101) is the best way to disrupt spell casters in practice.
 

(and unencumbered, see PHB 101)

Unfortunately, page 101 is not a rule. It seems to be a reference to the Eldritch Wizardry initiative system (where armour has an effect on initiative), but the actual effects of the rule are never detailed.

I've certainly occasionally held the "spell-casting begins on the opponent's initiative roll" view, although I don't current enact it in my AD&D game.

And then have a look at the Example of Melee (DMG page 71) and there are some additional oddities:

Here's what happens:
* Party A surprises party B for 2 segments
* After surprise, Party B win initiative
* Blastum casts shocking grasp to kill Arlanni, despite Arlanni wielding a sword. (In theory, you'd compare casting time vs losing die roll and weapon speed).
* Abner casts web and spoils Blastum's next spell, despite it being still round 1 of the combat!

Odd stuff indeed!

Cheers!
 

Spellcasters do NOT simply begin casting at the beginning of the round, and then the spells goes off at the end of the casting time. The time at which the caster begins casting depends on the initiative dice, and then completes after the casting time in segments. This seems very clear looking at p 65: "Their commencement [of spell casting in melee] is dictated by initiative determination as with other attack forms, but their culmination is subject to the stated casting time. Both commencement and/or completion can occur simultaneously with missile discharge..."

Well, if it were clear, there wouldn't be several decades of confusion about it! ;)

However, this view does tally with this quote from the PHB (page 104): "Unless combat is spell versus spell, many such attacks will happen near the end of a melee round. This is because the spell requires a relatively lengthy time to cast, generally longer as spell level increases, so high level spells may take over a full melee round to cast."

I've always read that last as being due to some spells taking over a round to cast, but if is instead casting time + initiative roll showing the end, then it certainly is a major indicator of how spells work.

Oh, more weirdness with the example of combat in the PHB (page 105):

Surprise goes to the party and the magic-user starts casting a sleep spell (1 segment length), but in the first round of combat the orcs win initiative and spoil the magic-user's spell! Given it should commence during the surprise round, this seems very strange.

Meanwhile, a cleric, having lost initiative, gets to cast silence before the illusionist's prismatic spray.

Cheers!
 

[MENTION=6688858]Libramarian[/MENTION] - interesting interpretation that comes dangerously close to making sense!

[MENTION=3586]MerricB[/MENTION] - in the PHB example, the silence spell takes 4 segments (because 1 segment of casting took place during the surprise segment), the prismatic spray 7 segments. ADDICT has it that spells vs spells are always just competitions of casting times, but I don't think this is in the books (is it? If it is I've missed it). But even if that's not right, you might still take the view that a quick spell has a chance to interrupt a slow spell - on Libramarian's approach, for instance, the casting times would look like this:

* Illusionist - commences casting on cleric's (losing) die, completes at that + 6.

* Cleric - commences casting on illusionist's (winning) die, completes at that +3.

Call the dice L and W: if W +3 < L + 6, then the cleric can interrupt. Which is to say, if the gap between the two dice is 2 or less.
 

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