D&D 5E Is Anyone Unhappy About Non-LG Paladins?

Are you unhappy about non-LG paladins?

  • No; in fact, it's a major selling point!

    Votes: 98 20.5%
  • No; in fact, it's a minor selling point.

    Votes: 152 31.7%
  • I don't care either way.

    Votes: 115 24.0%
  • Yes; and it's a minor strike against 5e.

    Votes: 78 16.3%
  • Yes; and it's a major strike against 5e!

    Votes: 18 3.8%
  • My paladin uses a Motorola phone.

    Votes: 18 3.8%

I see the redirection of the dracolich onto the paladin and the redirection of the "protection from evil" onto the rogue as similar. You're using in game fiction to "force" a situation. You're essentially forcing the player to dance to the GM's tune, one way or another. Whether he goes to the girl or the girl comes to him - he is still being forced to dance.
I don't think they're the same thing.

Having the dracolich attack the paladin leaves the player with his full suite of resources, to declare whatever actions he thinks appropriate and decide how to engage the game. That is, at least roughly, what playing a traditional RPG involves. For a player who has built a paladin, being in melee with a dracolich - or perhaps trying to soak up its attacks while waiting to see if you can turn it before dying - might even be fun.

Whereas having the PC's class ability taken from the PC and given to another PC is the GM stepping in and telling one player that he is playing his PC wrong, then imposing a punishment by weakening that player's PC, and then overtly agreeing with another player in respect of that player's PC's criticism of the paladin for being cowardly and bestowing a reward for that (ie the protection from evil ability). It has a coercive and punitive dimension that the first course of action - at least in my view - does not.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

So the problem you have is not so much that you are forced to dance to the GM's tune, but that you are forced to dance without "shoes" so to speak.

Having the dracolich attack the paladin leaves the player with his full suite of resources, to declare whatever actions he thinks appropriate and decide how to engage the game. That is, at least roughly, what playing a traditional RPG involves. For a player who has built a paladin, being in melee with a dracolich - or perhaps trying to soak up its attacks while waiting to see if you can turn it before dying - might even be fun.

So are you saying you or your players have never experienced a "non-traditional" RPG game where perhaps one of the characters is suffering and does not have his full suite of resources for one reason or another, or perhaps you have experienced it and it was not fun?

Whereas having the PC's class ability taken from the PC and given to another PC is the GM stepping in and telling one player that he is playing his PC wrong, then imposing a punishment by weakening that player's PC, and then overtly agreeing with another player in respect of that player's PC's criticism of the paladin for being cowardly and bestowing a reward for that (ie the protection from evil ability). It has a coercive and punitive dimension that the first course of action - at least in my view - does not.

How is this unlike your Vecna scenario, where the character purposefully thwarted Vecna and lost his familiar as a result. In Greg K's situation, the character purposefully made the choice to ignore the vision from his deity, while still requesting divine power from the same deity, and so lost his powers.
The deity decided to admonish his insolence.

Are you also saying that the players would not be able to see through the "thin veil" hiding DM judgement by having the Dracolich attack the paladin so overtly? Worse still, they might even think, wow, you're actually playing soft - cause you could have killed the shaman but decided to spare him to go after an ineffectual combatant.
 

So the problem you have is not so much that you are forced to dance to the GM's tune, but that you are forced to dance without "shoes" so to speak.
At this point I think the metaphor is losing its communicative power, at least on my side.

But I think that if a RPG is to run in something like the traditional way, but not be a railroad, then there has to be some sort of accommodation of the role of both GM and player. The GM plays the opposition, and - in virtue of that - plays a key role in framing the PCs (and thereby the players) into challenging situations. The players - using the resources that the game gives them, which includes stuff on the PC sheet plus stuff in the fictional situation that the GM has laid out - engage with those challenges. Telling the players how to engage, or punishing them for their choice as to how to engage, seems to me to be the GM intruding into the players' sphere.

It is complicated, of course, because a natural consequence of action resolution is that the players' resources become depleted. But this is where judicious decisions by the GM are necessary. The player who built the paladin PC has probably signed on for fighting a dracolich, and losing hit points, perhaps life levels, even in extremis having the PC die, are consequences that the player is therefore bound to accept as part of playing the game at all. But the player probably didn't sign on for the game of "guess how the GM thinks I should play my PC", with resource depletion being a consequence of making the wrong guess and sticking to it.

It would be different if the PC's god were itself framed as an obstacle for the PC (and therefore the player) to overcome. Doing this with a god is fairly unusual (because the standard power levels of D&D make it hard for PCs to challenge gods) but an analogue might be a thief character trying to steal from our outwit his/her guildmaster - the leader/mentor has become the opposition, and suffering resource depletion and similar adverse consequences as a result of failing to keep the guildmaster on side are part of what is at stake in such a situation.

But nothing about the paladin scenario we are discussing suggests to me that the player was approaching the situation in that way. The player was focusing on the dracolich as opposition, not his PC's own god.

Using the conceptual framework I have just set out, I would say that the GM has done two things that I wouldn't do myself: he has framed the player into a scene (conflict between the PC and the PC's god) that the player is not interested in, and which rests on a premise (that the PC is being cowardly) that the player appears to reject; and he has then imposed a consequence as part of the resolution of that scene (depriving the PC of an ability and thereby the player of a resource) without engaging any action resolution mechanics whereby the player had a chance of winning the confrontation.

So are you saying you or your players have never experienced a "non-traditional" RPG game where perhaps one of the characters is suffering and does not have his full suite of resources for one reason or another, or perhaps you have experienced it and it was not fun?
The issue is where the loss of resources comes from. It is one thing to engage a situation and lose resources as part of the application of the action resolution mechanics. It is another thing to have the GM frame you into a situation you didn't want and which rests on a premise about the fiction that you reject, and then to lose resources within that situation with no chance to do anything about it (eg say via persuading your god that in fact you're in the right).

How is this unlike your Vecna scenario, where the character purposefully thwarted Vecna and lost his familiar as a result. In Greg K's situation, the character purposefully made the choice to ignore the vision from his deity, while still requesting divine power from the same deity, and so lost his powers.
The deity decided to admonish his insolence.
Because in my scenario (i) the player wanted to be framed into a situation of conflict with Vecna, and had deliberately set things up (eg the way he had had his PC deal with the Eye of Vecna, but not only that) in order to bring about such a state of affairs; and (ii) the loss of resources was not a mere stipulation from the GM, but an ordinary consequence of the skill challenge mechanics, whereby the player got to achieve his desires for the situation (namely, Vecna was thwarted) but at a cost.

From the point of view of both framing and resolution, I don't see the two results as remotely comparable. (Within the fiction there may be similarities - though there is also one obvious difference, namely, that the character in my game got what he wanted whereas that does not seem to be true of the paladin under discussion here - but in any event that is not a very good guide to play experience. From the fiction you can't tell whether a scenario was the greatest RPGing experience of all time, or an unadulterated railroad.)

Are you also saying that the players would not be able to see through the "thin veil" hiding DM judgement by having the Dracolich attack the paladin so overtly? Worse still, they might even think, wow, you're actually playing soft - cause you could have killed the shaman but decided to spare him to go after an ineffectual combatant.
I don't know how you GM, but in my case there would be no veil at all! The dracolich would swoop towards the paladin taunting as it went.

I also don't understand your remark about an "ineffectual combatant". The whole scenario is premised on the assumption that the paladin is a highly effective combatant - otherwise, the notion that he might help his friends by engaging the dracolich in melee would be obviously wrong.
 

But the player probably didn't sign on for the game of "guess how the GM thinks I should play my PC", with resource depletion being a consequence of making the wrong guess and sticking to it.

What about signing on the game for

  • playing a certain archetype
  • adhering to the motivations/laws of a certain deity (being played by the GM)
  • that at time certain deity and character might not fully agree
  • that in instances where conflict might arise with ones deity, powers may be temporarily stripped
What if the player signed on the game knowing all that full well?

Using the conceptual framework I have just set out, I would say that the GM has done two things that I wouldn't do myself: he has framed the player into a scene (conflict between the PC and the PC's god) that the player is not interested in, and which rests on a premise (that the PC is being cowardly) that the player appears to reject;

The situation arose out of character choices in game, as in it was not pre-framed like the Vecna scenario and how does it appear that the player rejected it?

and he has then imposed a consequence as part of the resolution of that scene (depriving the PC of an ability and thereby the player of a resource) without engaging any action resolution mechanics whereby the player had a chance of winning the confrontation.

I think that would depend on his roleplaying actions and the roleplaying style of the group. From what was reflected, which admittedly is very little, the character didn’t do anything out of the ordinary. So did nothing special, rolled his turn attempt and failed. DM called it. Why must everything come down to action resolution mechanics (the die essentially). One can also rule in favour of not using the d20 in a certain scene and instead resolve the scene through roleplaying (choice & dialogue). I understand that certain groups might throw this into the “mother-may-I” category, but we have already established this is the style of that group already.

I mean he could have (through description) implored his deity with a resounding speech before attempting that last call of Turn Undead, he could have gotten down on his knees clutching the holy symbol at his chest, he could have walked towards the dragon attempting to turn while brandishing his sword in the other hand…etc
I’m saying some DMs might be inspired to resolve an action scene, even the loss of resources, through roleplay, others might require action resolution mechanics (the d20). Neither is wrong.

and then to lose resources within that situation with no chance to do anything about it (eg say via persuading your god that in fact you're in the right).

One cannot say that. Based on the description by Greg K, the paladin was bland as a button – rolled his die to turn. In that instant where the rogue in the party turned to the paladin and labelled him a coward might have given the inspiration to the DM to reward him with the protection from evil. That reflects that perhaps in that group one does not require action resolution mechanics to gain or lose resources.
We speak all the time of some great sessions where hardly a die was rolled - what makes this any different?

I also don't understand your remark about an "ineffectual combatant". The whole scenario is premised on the assumption that the paladin is a highly effective combatant - otherwise, the notion that he might help his friends by engaging the dracolich in melee would be obviously wrong.

My bad, I can see how that could seem absurd. I’m referring of his actions in the combat up until that point – being ineffectual. Usually the enemy goes after the person who is the most threatening to him or more often than not doing the most damage, the paladin wasn’t that person, up until then.
 
Last edited:

I mean, seriously, how many paladin characters have you seen in the last three campaigns you played in? Other than the ones you personally played. Anyone in this thread has likely played a paladin, or likes playing paladins, which explains why we all have pretty strong opinions on the fact. I'm willing to bet that my experience is hardly strange here, with few, if any, players taking up paladin characters.

/me raises his hand meekly. I've played in three, and run one "all paladins" campaign. :(
 

/me raises his hand meekly. I've played in three, and run one "all paladins" campaign. :(
My last campaign I DMed, in Pathfinder, had a paladin. He ended up killing his goddess and taking up her mantle at the end of the campaign when he decided she had betrayed her own ideals. So I may not be the best person to say how to dictate a paladin's code to them. :)
 

My last campaign I DMed, in Pathfinder, had a paladin. He ended up killing his goddess and taking up her mantle at the end of the campaign when he decided she had betrayed her own ideals. So I may not be the best person to say how to dictate a paladin's code to them. :)

I like it.

My paladins do indeed follow a specific god or pantheon....but thy have all been touched by some cosmic force in addition, giving the paladin of Pelor, and the paladin of Girru some similar traits.

Some faiths would rather not have their warriors touched by this force, cause those paladins might just take things into their own hands, to correct things according to those "cosmic LG" principles.

And then there is the paladins who fall, or get touched by the antithesis of this cosmic principle. LE.



Players like it.
 

/me raises his hand meekly. I've played in three, and run one "all paladins" campaign. :(

I'm not saying no one does it. But, I'm pretty sure that paladins are a lot like gnomes - something that people play around 10% of the time, if even that. And, I wasn't counting myself - because I like to play paladins. How many campaigns have you run? You ran an all paladins campaign, which would be hellacool btw, but, out of all the campaigns that you've run, or played, how many have you seen with paladins, that you yourself wasn't playing?

And, on another note:

Why help a cowardly paladin?

/snip

Then I would give him a choice, go back into his mortal coil and redeem himself, or remain lost forever.

And people wonder why paladins are problematic at tables. :D

----

Look, I'm not saying Greg K is wrong. It's his table and his players enjoyed it. Fine and good. But, I would not enjoy that. I don't see why I am automatically being cast as a bad player (asked to leave the group) simply because I disagree with the DM's ruling. I mean, it's not like Greg K's interpretation is the only possible one, we've seen that.

But, this, IMO, is why paladins as written are so problematic. Everyone digs into their positions and refuses to back down. There's no acknowledgement of alternative interpretations. Greg K being right does not automatically make Permerton or myself wrong.

And does anyone actually agree with DDNFan? Would anyone be perfectly happy at his table based on what he wrote in the quote? I know I wouldn't.
 

What about signing on the game for

  • playing a certain archetype
  • adhering to the motivations/laws of a certain deity (being played by the GM)
  • that at time certain deity and character might not fully agree
  • that in instances where conflict might arise with ones deity, powers may be temporarily stripped
What if the player signed on the game knowing all that full well?
Not having been there, it's hard to tell.

But my response to this is that when I play a paladin (or traditional "mace and armour" cleric - I personally don't see any non-mechanical difference between the two) I am signing on to play a game in which I advocate for and give voice to my god. I am not signing on to play a game in which my god's desires are an obstacle that I, as a player, must overcome.

I know that Gygaxian gaming is different - in Gygaxian gaming the paladin's code and alignment are another challenge for the player to deal with - but I don't think that many of the posters in this thread are playing in that sort of fashion.
 

I'm not saying no one does it. But, I'm pretty sure that paladins are a lot like gnomes - something that people play around 10% of the time, if even that. And, I wasn't counting myself - because I like to play paladins. How many campaigns have you run? You ran an all paladins campaign, which would be hellacool btw, but, out of all the campaigns that you've run, or played, how many have you seen with paladins, that you yourself wasn't playing?

And, on another note:



And people wonder why paladins are problematic at tables. :D

----

Look, I'm not saying Greg K is wrong. It's his table and his players enjoyed it. Fine and good. But, I would not enjoy that. I don't see why I am automatically being cast as a bad player (asked to leave the group) simply because I disagree with the DM's ruling. I mean, it's not like Greg K's interpretation is the only possible one, we've seen that.

But, this, IMO, is why paladins as written are so problematic. Everyone digs into their positions and refuses to back down. There's no acknowledgement of alternative interpretations. Greg K being right does not automatically make Permerton or myself wrong.

And does anyone actually agree with DDNFan? Would anyone be perfectly happy at his table based on what he wrote in the quote? I know I wouldn't.

I don't think anyone is wrong in this it is a matter of playstyle. I would not enjoy what DDNFan described because it is so rigid and does not take into consideration that players are not paladins in real life and in the end it is just a game.
 

Remove ads

Top