D&D 5E Is Anyone Unhappy About Non-LG Paladins?

[Lalato]

I think what you're arguing for is how niche the Paladin really is. I would rather have a non-religious oath-based Paladin than one that is based on being the martial arm of an LG deity. There was an oath-based class in Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved that was interesting. And there was also a Champion class that would work as a Paladin.

What doesn't make sense to me is... why does an LG deity need a warrior in the first place? It seems silly that any deity needs warriors at all... but LG deities would seem to need them less than most.

Go forth my minions and protect the innocent by killing sentient (perhaps redeemable) beings and taking their money! I mean that seems like a terribly odd thing to base your character concept on... but OK. I should note, that nothing in 5e stops you from continuing to follow this style of play (or any other with the Paladin).

 

[Xodis]

What doesn't make sense to me is... why does an LG deity need a warrior in the first place? It seems silly that any deity needs warriors at all... but LG deities would seem to need them less than most.

Go forth my minions and protect the innocent by killing sentient (perhaps redeemable) beings and taking their money! I mean that seems like a terribly odd thing to base your character concept on... but OK. I should note, that nothing in 5e stops you from continuing to follow this style of play (or any other with the Paladin).

Paladins redeem if able, nothing saying they have to kill the BBEG. I wouldnt think all LG deities have Paladins, mainly the more protective and martial types. The Gods that normally have Paladins have them to go destroy evil and spread good, aka Crusades. They best way to stop evil in their opinion is to find it and destroy it, which is why Paladins can sense evil and are built to destroy it.

You are correct though, I believe the Paladin is a LG niche. It would be neat if the class was Crusader or Champion, and it broke down into Paladin, Blackguard, etc.. Would allow for Oath or faith based "Paladins" but keep the name Paladin true to its name/origins. Either way, nobody will ever think of it exactly the same, so to each their own.

 

[Lalato]

That's just it though. That's too niche to be a class. Why not just play a religious Fighter?

If you want to play a holy warrior, there is nothing stopping you from playing any martial class as a holy warrior. Why does this one need to be LG only?

Tradition isn't a good explanation, especially if you consider historical sources. Paladins weren't nice guys. They were basically holy terrorists out for Saracen blood. In history, they really were... go forth and kill the enemies of this church (and keep all the loot you can find). Any positive spin on that is just myth making.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

They dont follow codes, they are who they are and as such fall in line with their deities beliefs. A Chaotic God wouldn't implement a code, its an oxymoron. Lawful Gods have codes, Chaotic Gods have guidelines, and Neutral gods kind blend the two, as in definitely don't do this, but this is OK if it's necessary.

Ah, so you're using the Barbossa explanation. Well if you're still unsure how a chaotic paladin follows a code, there you are: he doesn't. He follows guidelines.

According to many fans of the flexible paladin, at least.

If I was Waukeen (God of Trade, Wealth, Money, and TN) why would I even want a Paladin? I want Bards and Rogues as my patrons, I don't need/want Paladins because I'm not about fighting the good or bad fight, I dont need Crusaders, nothing about them would even interest me, so why bother myself with them?

"Why would God X want paladins?" is like asking "Why would God X want clerics?" For example, why would Waukeen or Olidammara or Boccob or Sune or any number of other gods want followers who have decent fighting skill, heavy armor proficiency, a quirky set of weapon proficiencies, and some of the best combat buffs in the game -- many of them self-only! -- along with the best mortal healing powers available. Clerics aren't as fight-y as paladins, but they do have a very particular skill set -- one that doesn't seem to fit many gods. And yet every god has clerics.

It also seems to me that a god like Kord would much rather have paladins than clerics, being a god of Good, strength, and martial prowess. Similarly Hextor, and countless many other martially-minded gods.

So the way I figure things, every god has at least a couple clerics and a couple of paladins. Because from a god's perspective, why turn down a loyal follower? "Sorry mortal, we're looking for applicants with a different skill set" doesn't seem very in-character for a divine being to me.

 

[Xodis]

Because from a god's perspective, why turn down a loyal follower? "Sorry mortal, we're looking for applicants with a different skill set" doesn't seem very in-character for a divine being to me.

That seems exactly like what Divine beings do, otherwise everyone would have Divine power of some sort. Clerics are suppose to be the cream of the crop, and then Paladins are the best, strongest, and just of those guys. If gods handed out divine magic just because "sure, why not?" imagine how many Clerics and Paladins there would be?

As far as "niche" character, the Paladin is suppose to be a niche character. Sure you can play a religious Fighter, but that's not a Paladin. A Paladin is chosen by his god to combat evil in all its forms (sometimes specific forms of it). Some gods like combat sure, but Divine Salvation isn't part of their way, butt-kicking is. Change it up, if everyone could be a Paladin just because you worship a god, whats the point of having Religious Fighters? Some people just want to be an awesome warrior and have a little faith, Conan style.

Lalato- Yes in the real world Paladins were pretty bad, but Clerics didn't actually heal with Divine power, Wizards were just simple illusionists and masters of misdirection, Bards were annoying, and Rogues more often then not ended up missing a hand or dieing in jail. You cant pick and choose just a little bit if history and disregard the rest. These classes are based on a Fantasy version of their realistic counterparts, taking what would be amazing, and filtering out the sad reality.

TS- Kord probably likes Paladins, until he sees all the rules and regulations one must follow to be a Paladin since Chaos is also a thing of his. How could he ask his Paladins to follow a code or guideline when he himself doesn't believe in them? Paladins are great warriors, but I'm pretty sure he trusts his Fighter classes worshipers, who occasionally dip into Cleric or priesthood when they have to retire (aka crippled, broken, mangled).

If you only have guidelines instead of a code, how could you punish your servant for doing something you dont like? It's not like you gave him clear instructions.

 

[Lalato]

Philosophically speaking, why would a good deity want to punish a follower? It doesn't make sense. Why are there militaristic good deities? It doesn't make sense.

Again, I think you've argued that the paladin is so niche that it shouldn't even be a class. It should just be a feat chain. An option for any class to take.

 

[Xodis]

Philosophically speaking, why would a good deity want to punish a follower? It doesn't make sense. Why are there militaristic good deities? It doesn't make sense.

Again, I think you've argued that the paladin is so niche that it shouldn't even be a class. It should just be a feat chain. An option for any class to take.

You punish followers like you punish children, for not following the rules, and disobeying. Its not a permanent punishment, and generally takes something pretty bad (sneaking out at night, breaking bread with demons) to cause it, but you allow them to understand what they did was wrong and teach them a lesson.

The Paladin in this edition could be a feat since feats are so powerful this edition, or like I previously posted have a Champion class that breaks down into the 3 types of champions(LG Paladin, LN Marshall, LE Blackguard). This way there is more choice, but are very similar.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

That seems exactly like what Divine beings do, otherwise everyone would have Divine power of some sort. Clerics are suppose to be the cream of the crop, and then Paladins are the best, strongest, and just of those guys. If gods handed out divine magic just because "sure, why not?" imagine how many Clerics and Paladins there would be?

Oh my no, gods don't hand out divine might 'just because.' There's nothing wrong with treating gods as employers who pay their employees with divine juice, but traditionally, D&D gods compete for followers because they depend on the prayers of the faithful. Depending on the campaign setting, loss of worship is the one thing that might kill a god.

So from a traditional point of view, it's in every god's best interest to empower the truly faithful; the ones who will pay more than lip service; the ones who will live and breath the god's tenets; the ones who will spread the faith; the clerics and the paladins. And again, the cleric class demonstrates this truth, despite its narrow focus.

TS- Kord probably likes Paladins, until he sees all the rules and regulations one must follow to be a Paladin since Chaos is also a thing of his. How could he ask his Paladins to follow a code or guideline when he himself doesn't believe in them? Paladins are great warriors, but I'm pretty sure he trusts his Fighter classes worshipers, who occasionally dip into Cleric or priesthood when they have to retire (aka crippled, broken, mangled).

If you only have guidelines instead of a code, how could you punish your servant for doing something you dont like? It's not like you gave him clear instructions.

What a strange question, given that we're talking about a chaotic god, as you say. Why would Kord impose a strict code on his paladins? As you yourself asserted a few posts ago, chaotic gods impose guidelines rather than codes. And why would Kord look for excuses to punish his paladins more than his clerics? Follow his guidelines, and everything should be peachy, no?

You seem to be equating the Code with all paladins, but that's an important point of difference between gamers. For many of us, a code does not a paladin make.

 

[Xodis]

You seem to be equating the Code with all paladins, but that's an important point of difference between gamers. For many of us, a code does not a paladin make.

The code does make the Paladin. The code is what makes them a step above the crowd. The Paladin is suppose to be a mythical Knight of Legend, they are suppose to be special. The code is the background in which Paladins were created, anything else is just a Divine Fighter of some sort. Having a Paladin without a code is like being a Politician who represents no voters, all of the power without any of the responsibility.

From a reverse standpoint, if you can have a Paladin without a code to guide and temper their actions, what point is there in Religious Fighters? You can have a very pious Fighter who prays, but he is still a Fighter true to heart, a Warrior, someone who is best on the battlefield. A Paladin is much more than a Holy Warrior, they are Diplomats, Liberators, Bane of Evil, Shining light at the Darkest of times. This is what makes a Paladin, not a smite attack. This is why they were limited to Lawful Good. A good character who can stand by his beliefs when others falter, a Knight who isn't swayed by trinkets of man, a Soul uncorrupted when drowning in floods of Evil. The difference is some players see the Paladin as a class with limits, not a Stoic figure of Mercy and Divine Retribution.

 

[evileeyore]

Oh my no, gods don't hand out divine might 'just because.'

Of course they do any time I as the DM say they do.