Attacking Grappled Targets?

[Oryan77]

The spider effectively ends it's turn in the same square as the character - which the rules (which I found using that search - thanks!) clearly state you can NOT do. So that's what's been giving me fits trying to figure out the proper mechanic.

Creatures two size categories smaller can enter into an occupied square. Creatures smaller than small must enter into an occupied square to attack. So if that spider is tiny or smaller, it has to enter into the square to attack. So that makes sense, and a PC can make a grab attack to grab it and throw it off. You basically make a touch attack to grab it, then just throw it. It wouldn't get an AoO because it doesn't threaten any squares (not when it is in your square).

How about something like the worms from a Spawn of Kyuss? Tiny, crawling ON you, but there's no wording about a grapple taking place. The rest of the party needs to target said worm, so according to what I'm reading, they can do so with ANY melee weapon at no penalty/chance of hitting the wrong target?

That's pretty much it. You go by what the monster entry description says first. If it has no mention of grapple, then you don't make any grapple checks. Since it says it can be attacked, and it doesn't mention any penalties, then that is what you run with. It's not grappling, so there is no reason to receive penalties. It might seem odd thinking that an ally can attack it, but I just think of it as the ally being careful not to wound his friend and most likely your friend isn't running around like a madman saying "get it off, get it off!" He's most likely being more still to help you get a good aim on it.

do seem to have led many to believe that there must be a printed rule somewhere in the book for any given situation, and that a "good DM" must abide by those printed rules.

I love the 3.5 rules, which is why I still play it. But what you mention is what I also hated about the D20 rules. It was so nice at how easy the rules were to learn when they came out. On the flip side, they were also really easy for players to learn. So rules-lawyering got way worse. It makes it impossible to play rules-light with players. I try, but even when I make it known to players that I don't want to be a stickler to the rules, they still question my rulings most of the time.

Also look in the section on moving through a square. While not completely on topic, it does address creatures with three or more size category differences.

If you really want to read up on some contradicting and eye-opening rules discussing moving into occupied squares, check out the PHB and DMG about small sized creatures moving into huge size or bigger creatures squares. The DMG makes it seem like small(er) creatures give all allies flanking bonuses regardless of which square you are in when he enters within a huge sized creatures area. That means nobody would need to worry about being in correct squares to receive flanking bonuses and it doesn't matter what square the small ally enters. So basically, free +2 flanking for anyone directly around a huge creature.

But the PHB specifically says that this can't happen. So they contradict each other. Luckily, the books also say that if any book contradicts the PHB, then the PHB is the correct ruling to go by.

 

[dupes]

Thanks to everyone for weighing in on this...I feel better about my lack of understanding when knowing fully about the amount of confusion in the rules.

Creatures two size categories smaller can enter into an occupied square. Creatures smaller than small must enter into an occupied square to attack. So if that spider is tiny or smaller, it has to enter into the square to attack. So that makes sense, and a PC can make a grab attack to grab it and throw it off. You basically make a touch attack to grab it, then just throw it. It wouldn't get an AoO because it doesn't threaten any squares (not when it is in your square).

Again, back to that "example of play" - it specifically states that the spider WOULD get an AoO when you make a grab at it. Probably half my issue is relying on this thing to get the rules correct! Unfortunate.

That's pretty much it. You go by what the monster entry description says first. If it has no mention of grapple, then you don't make any grapple checks. Since it says it can be attacked, and it doesn't mention any penalties, then that is what you run with. It's not grappling, so there is no reason to receive penalties. It might seem odd thinking that an ally can attack it, but I just think of it as the ally being careful not to wound his friend and most likely your friend isn't running around like a madman saying "get it off, get it off!" He's most likely being more still to help you get a good aim on it.

I totally understand your reasoning (and I think the interpretation of the rules as written is correct)...but I'm still trying to picture the party fighter/barbarian using a lance/greataxe/two-handed sword/what have you on an inch long worm crawling around on someone and using it effectively while having no chance to hit the person upon whom is being crawled (crawlee?).

 

[dupes]

If you came to the hobby later in its history, it's totally understandable why the 3.5 example of play is confusing to you, however. While nothing in the 3rd edition actually suggests DMs slavishly adhere to the rules as written, the much more comprehensive, internally consistent rules of that edition (as compared to its predecessors) do seem to have led many to believe that there must be a printed rule somewhere in the book for any given situation, and that a "good DM" must abide by those printed rules.

I've actually been playing regularly since...1985. 1st Edition AD&D for years!

I think the fact that there generally ARE rules for just about every (other) situation in 3.5 is what had me convinced that this instance must be in there somewhere as well.

Time to come up with a decent house rule.

 

[Oryan77]

Again, back to that "example of play" - it specifically states that the spider WOULD get an AoO when you make a grab at it. Probably half my issue is relying on this thing to get the rules correct! Unfortunate.

Sorry for the confusion. Actually, I had a brain fart on that one. It still threatens your square while in your square, so it does get an AoO if you grab it. It just doesn't have any reach since it is tiny or smaller. So you can move out of the square without provoking an AoO from it. Sorry about that.

The example is a bit misleading though. It mentions the spider being monstrous, but the DM refers to it as a "large" spider crawling on her neck. I'm sure he isn't talking about large as in creature size, but large as in it is just a big spider. A large sized spider isn't going to be crawling on any necks. I'm assuming it is tiny or smaller.

I totally understand your reasoning (and I think the interpretation of the rules as written is correct)...but I'm still trying to picture the party fighter/barbarian using a lance/greataxe/two-handed sword/what have you on an inch long worm crawling around on someone and using it effectively while having no chance to hit the person upon whom is being crawled (crawlee?).

Jedi's do it all the time! If you were going to houserule something, I suggest keeping it really really simple. 3.5e already has a boatload of rules to keep up with (and you admit to be struggling with them). Houseruling something like this is not going to really add much to your game. But it will make it more complex and difficult.

The creatures already have a size modifier to AC, so that should represent how hard it is to hit it with a lance/greataxe/two-handed sword. All you want to add is a chance that when they miss hitting the AC, they instead hit their ally. Something like that is usually done with critical fumbles. So I'd suggest ruling that a natural 1 on the attack means you hit the ally instead. Everything else is already figured into the rules for attacking that worm.

 

[Greenfield]

Move out of his square? If you're doing a Withdraw or a 5 foot step, you're right.
Otherwise, he gets one.

Remember that the AoO takes place at the beginning of the action that provokes it.

If that wasn't the case then a person moving 15 feet away from a melee fighter and firing a bow or throwing a spell would only provoke after they had moved out of the fighter's reach.