D&D 5E Supplemental books: Why the compulsion to buy and use, but complain about it?

[billd91]

that is why this problem is not really one dealing with this thread at all, there was no right answer, and given 100 different tries you would most likely have the same result in any that kept K playing that game. It was a problem player issue, not a let splat books in or not issue...

Except for the fact that the player is a problem quite often around the issues of stuff let into the game or not. The issue is not 100% distinct and gets right to the controversies of this thread.

 

[Elf Witch]

that is why this problem is not really one dealing with this thread at all, there was no right answer, and given 100 different tries you would most likely have the same result in any that kept K playing that game. It was a problem player issue, not a let splat books in or not issue...

Actually it is partly a splatbook issue if it there were not splatbooks then this would not be an issue. Or did you miss the people saying they hate splatbooks for this very reason?

I am saying that instead of not doing splatbooks DMs need to be able to say no.

 

[Elf Witch]

Except for the fact that the player is a problem quite often around the issues of stuff let into the game or not. The issue is not 100% distinct and gets right to the controversies of this thread.

Exactly every issue that has ever risen with K has been over options from Skills and Powers back in the days of AD&D to every splatbook book that came down the pike since. He believes that DMs should never say no to a player a lot like some people here. It is his opinion that every DM should be able to handle everything and if they can't that is their failing as a DM. Again like a lot of people here in this thread believe.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Exactly every issue that has ever risen with K has been over options from Skills and Powers back in the days of AD&D to every splatbook book that came down the pike since. He believes that DMs should never say no to a player a lot like some people here. It is his opinion that every DM should be able to handle everything and if they can't that is their failing as a DM. Again like a lot of people here in this thread believe.

well if that is the case I am in the middle but much closer to K's side... and I never used skills and powers...

I still don't see it as a splat book issue at all, since you said even if the DM had said yes he still would cause problems...

most splat books are more options, and if you are playing a game with people who are paying money to buy books with more options in them, then I don't think it unreasonable to expect that at least most of those options will be useable most of the time (I never said always or all)

I also have to agree to a point that if you as a DM can handle a core only 3.5 druid who can turn into a bear, have a bear companion, summon more bears and call lighting, or a Cleric who self buffs, but all of a sudden can't handle a warlock or swordsage... it sounds very fishey to me. Infact it almost sounds like there is a different issue you are hiding.

 

[billd91]

I also have to agree to a point that if you as a DM can handle a core only 3.5 druid who can turn into a bear, have a bear companion, summon more bears and call lighting, or a Cleric who self buffs, but all of a sudden can't handle a warlock or swordsage... it sounds very fishey to me. Infact it almost sounds like there is a different issue you are hiding.

What's fishy? It's all additional volumes of stuff and more complications, particularly with the weirdness that is the warlock. That class doesn't even follow normal class abilities. So I totally understand barring it to manage the game's complicatedness.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I hate that excuse... the prewritten adventure needs atleast a bit of adaption and you need to work with your players.

I agree...most of the time. However, every time he's gotten angry it's because the adventure required him to think, even a little bit. His response is always "what do I have to roll for my character to figure this out for me?

wait what?!?!? there is no skill in the entire game that can help you here?!??

I would have been more polite, but I agree with your player, if there is a way to figure it out, then there is a way to figure it out, if it is random it is random. why couldn't a high persception or insight or notice, or investigate, or some skill help?

The adventure specifically said that for the players to get skill checks they needed to ask specifically about the things they were looking for or at. It said not to give them skill checks unless they said "Hey, you mentioned that bow over there was made of purple wood. I go look at the bow closer and see why it's purple instead of a normal colour." Then you'd be told that the bow was made of a special type of wood only found in one forest. But the adventure took place in an inn room filled with people and objects. It was designed to test the players a bit and less their characters.

Spoiler for the D&D Expeditions adventure DDEX1-1 Defiance in Phlan for those who don't want to know:

Spoiler

The answer is that the lighting hits the nearest person who has something on them from the forest in question since the artifact contains the spirit of a dragon who lived in that forest. The first person it hits is the one who took the artifact out of forest. The second person is someone who has been eating soup made from a plant that only grows in the forest. The third person is carrying a bow made out of a tree in the forest. The next person is wearing flowers in their hair that they picked in the forest. Then someone who is wearing a necklace of flowers from the forest.

The PCs are supposed to watch the pattern and get more clues each time it jumps. In which case they can grab any object from the forest and the artifact and stand right beside the last person hit.

The entire point of the puzzle is for the players to figure it out. It's not much of a puzzle of the players say "I look around! I roll a 25!" and you say "Alright, there is a bow made of wood from a specific forest laying on the chair next to that woman, the soup that guy is eating is made from a plant only in that same forest, also that woman has a flower in her hair from that forest." The adventure would be over in about 30 seconds. The adventure is supposed to last an hour and that's the majority of the adventure is observing and figuring out the answer.

The adventure does have an information gathering section of the adventure. The PCs are told that there is a magical evil artifact somewhere in the room but they don't know where, so they are asked to spread out and talk to everyone in the inn to see if they can discover anything suspicious. The adventure enters "Phase 2" when the PCs figure out that one guy has the artifact in a glass sphere in a bag at his feat. Any attempt to get into the bag or reference to the bag causes the NPC to get paranoid and attempt to pick up the bag and accidentally smash the sphere, causing the lightning to be released.

It is possible that before they ever discover the artifact is in the bag, they have spoken to the guy eating the soup and know the origin of the soup(just looking at it doesn't let you know what it's made of since it looks nothing like the plant in question). It means you could have asked the ranger about her bow and it's origin long before this started. They didn't. They skipped that part and went directly to "Someone got zapped by electricity! Tell us why, immediately! Don't make me figure it out on my own, I don't want to. Just tell me the answer!"

That wasn't the only time he complained about immediately not knowing the answer, however. We played Murder in Baldur's Gate and he complained that the Dukes of the city wouldn't immediately change the laws based on their obviously superior logic as to why they should be changed and a high persuasion check. He got angry that the guards of the city wouldn't stop harassing people they considered criminals simply because the PCs told them all not to. He felt they were the heroes of the story and people should listen to them. There shouldn't be problems that they couldn't just solve by rolling high enough on a die.

We played Scourge of the Sword Coast:

Spoiler

In the adventure, the PCs get to Daggerford and a guard goes insane and attacks them. They subdue him but he hangs himself in his cell. This is because there is a succubus in town who dominated him into doing it. But no one in town knows she's a succubus. So the adventure assumes you'll talk to everyone in town, run into a dead end in your investigation then be given a new mission to go investigate a nearby town that hasn't been heard from in a week. They'll be told it's extremely important and they need to go now, people might be in danger. To make a long story short, the PCs get sent on a couple of urgent missions while they are in the town and in the process discover a bunch of red wizards who are attempting to take over the area. The succubus works for them and you eventually run into her in their lair. Thereby solving the mystery. Though the adventure assumes there's no way for the PCs to solve the mystery before the end of the adventure where they meet the succubus and she confesses. Then you fight her after having gained 3 levels over the course of the adventure. Otherwise there's a real chance the succubus just kills the whole party at the level they start the adventure at.

The player in question showed up, talked to the people in town, realized that no one gave them enough information to solve the suicide and immediately started complaining that this adventure was stupid, it didn't give him enough information to solve the crime immediately, so what was the point? He tried all his skills but none of them told him the answer!

I don't know any PCs who would not be mad at that, however most would be respectful and not 'blow a gasket'

I certainly wouldn't be mad about it. Feats are optional. They don't need to be allowed and the DM can decide whether he or she wants them in their game. I used to get angry about splat books not being allowed...but those weren't labelled explicitly optional like feats.

DANGER DANGER.... BAD DMing to the worst I have heard on these boards in a while... YOU KNEW and AGREED he had "horrible" stats and you made him play them...

I hate rolling for this very reason... I let my players roll if they insist on it (witch they often do) then I make them play with the stats so that everytime someone complains I say "That's why I like point buy"

I rarely if ever hear a story about how much someone loves to play an underdog so much that they like having the worst stats in a game...

He didn't have HORRIBLE stats, he had slightly below average stats. I was having them roll precisely because my player's REALLY like to power game the crap out of their characters. Especially him. I figured that if we rolled, it would get everyone out of the mind set that their stats NEEDED to be an 18 or their character was horrible. Most people wouldn't even roll an 18 so it would no longer be expected.

He rolled a couple of points below the standard array. So, it wasn't too far away from the "average" roll. But the entire exercise of rolling would have been pointless if I just let him reroll. Because the point was that not everyone was going to be equal. He complained about it EVERY session though until he said "Look, my stats are below the standard array, EVERYONE else is above the array's stats. I feel like I'm completely worthless." I said "Fine, since it's such a big deal to you, even though I have not seen your character be significantly weaker than anyone else at the table, I'll let you reroll." He rolled even lower than his old stats. I told him I'd be nice and let him keep his old stats instead of his newer, worse stats...but he needed to stop complaining about how bad they were. He did. That was the last I heard of it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

What's fishy? It's all additional volumes of stuff and more complications, particularly with the weirdness that is the warlock. That class doesn't even follow normal class abilities. So I totally understand barring it to manage the game's complicatedness.

it isn't any more work... they get x number of at will abilities it takes 10 seconds to adapt to that. I mean they are even built like spells. Each time the warlock gets one you learn "Hey he can now do X"

Example: He can shoot a bolt that does 1d6 damage, can see in the dark and cast magic darkness that does damage... goes up a level now his 1d6 blast is 2d6 and can have a larger range...

I agree...most of the time. However, every time he's gotten angry it's because the adventure required him to think, even a little bit. His response is always "what do I have to roll for my character to figure this out for me?

SO he uses his skills and stats. Tell me again why that is a problem?

The adventure specifically said that for the players to get skill checks they needed to ask specifically about the things they were looking for or at.

IHATE THOSE ADVENTURES... it turns into a very binary either someone gets it or they don't BS moments...

It said not to give them skill checks unless they said "Hey, you mentioned that bow over there was made of purple wood. I go look at the bow closer and see why it's purple instead of a normal colour." Then you'd be told that the bow was made of a special type of wood only found in one forest. But the adventure took place in an inn room filled with people and objects.

so if your players have bad memories, but are playing high wisdom high Int characters, the characters can't figure that out because the player didn't... that sounds like a horrid set up.

It was designed to test the players a bit and less their characters.



[sblock=DDEX1-1]
Spoiler for the D&D Expeditions adventure DDEX1-1 Defiance in Phlan for those who don't want to know:

The answer is that the lighting hits the nearest person who has something on them from the forest in question since the artifact contains the spirit of a dragon who lived in that forest. The first person it hits is the one who took the artifact out of forest.

that almost seems fair enough.

The second person is someone who has been eating soup made from a plant that only grows in the forest.

this writer needs to be disallowed from ever writing anything for D&D again... so just to check, I am supposed to ask every person hit what they eat/are eating... this is the dumbest idea ever. Atleast if it was a skill check you could have the players get the info some how.

The third person is carrying a bow made out of a tree in the forest.

not as bad as the soup... but pretty close. I imagine most PCs don't know where the wood for there bows come from, and if I asked 100 DMs over the cources of 10 cons next year we would be lucky if 2 knew where there NPC bows where from... that is BS to expect a PC to ask that...

The next person is wearing flowers in their hair that they picked in the forest. Then someone who is wearing a necklace of flowers from the forest.

atleast that is a theme, once you pick up on flowers mattering you can check every flower...

The PCs are supposed to watch the pattern and get more clues each time it jumps.

no the CHARACTERS are supposed to do things the PLAYER just tells you and you adjudicate (with or without a roll) how successful.

Example: "Hey, I have a high Insight and Perception, and a great Wisdom and OK Survival, I look for a pattern witch skill can I roll."
as apposed to say the 18 Int 16 Wis wizard who is a investigator being stumped well the 9 int and 11 wis barbarian gets it because by luck his player figured it out first...

In which case they can grab any object from the forest and the artifact and stand right beside the last person hit.

or sit around unsure of what the magic question is to ask until the DM throws them a bone... wasting time

The entire point of the puzzle is for the players to figure it out. It's not much of a puzzle of the players say "I look around! I roll a 25!" and you say "Alright, there is a bow made of wood from a specific forest laying on the chair next to that woman, the soup that guy is eating is made from a plant only in that same forest, also that woman has a flower in her hair from that forest."

OK, then make it multi checks... like say Arcana to figure out there must be a pattern. Insight to notice something, survival to identify the plants, and perception to notice something. There is a HUGE room between make the player guess and make 1 roll.

The adventure would be over in about 30 seconds. The adventure is supposed to last an hour and that's the majority of the adventure is observing and figuring out the answer.

That adventure could take a year of 5 hour weekly sessions if your players aren't able to pick up on clues well

The adventure does have an information gathering section of the adventure. The PCs are told that there is a magical evil artifact somewhere in the room but they don't know where, so they are asked to spread out and talk to everyone in the inn to see if they can discover anything suspicious.

great, and if I was told that you know what quastions would NEVER be asked...
"Hey where is the wood for your bow from?"
"Hey where are the ingredients for your soup from?"
on the other hand after being told that you know what I might ask "Hey I have +X in Y skill, can I roll it to look for suspicious people"

The adventure enters "Phase 2" when the PCs figure out that one guy has the artifact in a glass sphere in a bag at his feat. Any attempt to get into the bag or reference to the bag causes the NPC to get paranoid and attempt to pick up the bag and accidentally smash the sphere, causing the lightning to be released.

so since this is supposed to take an hour, what happens if 45 mins into this no one interacted with him?

It is possible that before they ever discover the artifact is in the bag, they have spoken to the guy eating the soup and know the origin of the soup(just looking at it doesn't let you know what it's made of since it looks nothing like the plant in question).

Think that through... they could talk to that guy for an hour real time and in game time, find out his name, his profession, his family, where he was at 8 oclock on the 6th, detect magic on him, and even make friends with him, taste the soup, and then watch him die... and NEVER KNOW ABOUT THE DAMN PLANT...

It means you could have asked the ranger about her bow and it's origin long before this started. They didn't. They skipped that part and went directly to "Someone got zapped by electricity! Tell us why, immediately! Don't make me figure it out on my own, I don't want to. Just tell me the answer!"

you know what, I don't need answers... but damn I need clues that work, and that is rife with ones I could never put togather... mixing that with "don't role play your character this is an out of game test" would make me ready to blow a gastgit...
[/sblock]

That wasn't the only time he complained about immediately not knowing the answer, however. We played Murder in Baldur's Gate and he complained that the Dukes of the city wouldn't immediately change the laws based on their obviously superior logic as to why they should be changed and a high persuasion check.

well, if it was logical, AND persuasive, then maybe not imediaatly change laws but maybe give him some benfit...

He got angry that the guards of the city wouldn't stop harassing people they considered criminals simply because the PCs told them all not to. He felt they were the heroes of the story and people should listen to them. There shouldn't be problems that they couldn't just solve by rolling high enough on a die.

so just to make sure we are on the same page... was that die roll backed up by ingame logic, and a resource use for the game (AKA I put high ranks in intimadet, I should be able to intimidate people)


We played Scourge of the Sword Coast:
[Sblock=spoilers]

In the adventure, the PCs get to Daggerford and a guard goes insane and attacks them. They subdue him but he hangs himself in his cell. This is because there is a succubus in town who dominated him into doing it. But no one in town knows she's a succubus. So the adventure assumes you'll talk to everyone in town, run into a dead end in your investigation then be given a new mission to go investigate a nearby town that hasn't been heard from in a week.

so what happens if the PCs figure out she is a succubus, or just don't give up, or have a cool idea instead of taking another mission mid adventure?

They'll be told it's extremely important and they need to go now, people might be in danger. To make a long story short, the PCs get sent on a couple of urgent missions while they are in the town and in the process discover a bunch of red wizards who are attempting to take over the area.

man this feels like the worst type of video game... (Why yes I have to get an antidote to save my life, and stop a homicidal clown, but let me just answer this random payphone...)

The succubus works for them and you eventually run into her in their lair. Thereby solving the mystery.

how is that solving anything?

Though the adventure assumes there's no way for the PCs to solve the mystery before the end of the adventure where they meet the succubus and she confesses.

wait, this adventure sets up a mystery that is only resolved when the villain monologs... ugh...

Then you fight her after having gained 3 levels over the course of the adventure. Otherwise there's a real chance the succubus just kills the whole party at the level they start the adventure at.

AHHH!!!! I hate this type of adventure...

The player in question showed up, talked to the people in town, realized that no one gave them enough information to solve the suicide and immediately started complaining that this adventure was stupid,

I agree

it didn't give him enough information to solve the crime immediately, so what was the point? He tried all his skills but none of them told him the answer!

its worse then that, although that is bad enough, it is impossible for you to solve it until the DM hands it to you...
[/sblock]

I certainly wouldn't be mad about it. Feats are optional. They don't need to be allowed and the DM can decide whether he or she wants them in their game. I used to get angry about splat books not being allowed...but those weren't labelled explicitly optional like feats.

I would be mad, not nessarly blow up start a fight mad, but I would feel the DM was being a bit over board if they didn't let such a basic part of the game if the PCs wanted it...

He didn't have HORRIBLE stats,

go back a step horrible was your word...not mine.

he had slightly below average stats. I was having them roll precisely because my player's REALLY like to power game the crap out of their characters. Especially him. I figured that if we rolled, it would get everyone out of the mind set that their stats NEEDED to be an 18 or their character was horrible. Most people wouldn't even roll an 18 so it would no longer be expected.

so to teach them a lesson you told them to do something you know they don't like to do then were supprised when they didn't like something you know they don't like ?!?!?!? I am really confused here.

You know they like to power game.
You want to teach them what they like (powergaming is wrong)
You tell them to make characters a way they don't like that will make them unhappy (roll stats)
You figure out they complain when asked to do something they don't like...

you know what that reminds me of. I had an ex girlfriend who loved sea food. I do not eat sea food, at all. 3 sepreate times she had me go to sea food only resterants, all three times she asked why I wasn't eating much... then when she insited I talk about why I was upset, she was shocked to learn that eating food I do not like is disgusting to me...

He rolled a couple of points below the standard array. So, it wasn't too far away from the "average" roll. But the entire exercise of rolling would have been pointless if I just let him reroll.

I agree if you let in re rolls why roll right...

Because the point was that not everyone was going to be equal.

there are players that makes VERY UNHAPPY...

He complained about it EVERY session though until he said "Look, my stats are below the standard array, EVERYONE else is above the array's stats.

before I finish his though just think that through for a moment... if everyone but 1 person is above average... then the real average (of your game) is higher... if 4 players have 16, 16, 16, 15, 13, 10, then that is the average...

I feel like I'm completely worthless."

and right there he communicated how he felt, and remember this is a game, no one should ever feel completely worthless in a game...

I said "Fine, since it's such a big deal to you, even though I have not seen your character be significantly weaker than anyone else at the table, I'll let you reroll." He rolled even lower than his old stats. I told him I'd be nice and let him keep his old stats instead of his newer, worse stats...but he needed to stop complaining about how bad they were. He did. That was the last I heard of it.

Oh my god... that is the most monsterus thing I have heard... since the mod designed.

I told him I'd be nice and let him keep his old stats instead of his newer, worse stats

how is that NICE?!?!?!?!?! that is rude, he told you he wasn't having fun and your saying you were nice by having nothing change???

but he needed to stop complaining about how bad they were. He did. That was the last I heard of it

please somebody, anybody... check me here. This sounds insane... you made a friend continue to play a character he is un happy with by threatning to make the character less if he didn't stop complaining... what?!?!?!

I don't want to say what I really think here (or be accused of insulting) please someone else tell me if I read that wrong, because the actions sound a lot like bullying...

 

[Elf Witch]

well if that is the case I am in the middle but much closer to K's side... and I never used skills and powers...

I still don't see it as a splat book issue at all, since you said even if the DM had said yes he still would cause problems...

most splat books are more options, and if you are playing a game with people who are paying money to buy books with more options in them, then I don't think it unreasonable to expect that at least most of those options will be useable most of the time (I never said always or all)

I also have to agree to a point that if you as a DM can handle a core only 3.5 druid who can turn into a bear, have a bear companion, summon more bears and call lighting, or a Cleric who self buffs, but all of a sudden can't handle a warlock or swordsage... it sounds very fishey to me. Infact it almost sounds like there is a different issue you are hiding.

Those options in a powergamers hand can break games. Don't tell me that it is not an issue because I see it raised here a lot about players going to char op threads and making PCs that are so powerful that the DM has trouble coming up with challenges that work.

But it is a book issue if there were no splats then there would be no players demanding that even if the class does not fit into the FDM world or is to powerful that the DM must let him play or they are a bad DM.

I never said anything about warlock or swordage. I said there was a problem with gunslinger. Not all the options are bad are over powered but there are combos that are broken.

If you need to play with a lot of options then find a DM who does not mind that don't try and force a DM to do it if they don't like all those extra options.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Those options in a powergamers hand can break games.

there are options in core that in a powergamers hand can break the game...

Don't tell me that it is not an issue because I see it raised here a lot about players going to char op threads and making PCs that are so powerful that the DM has trouble coming up with challenges that work.

why yes that is an issue, just not the issue at hand. In less you are suggesting that everyone of us who wants to use the books we bought for the game have some secrete powergaming motive... one that gets played out by asking to play things less powerful then a core only COdzilla

But it is a book issue if there were no splats then there would be no players demanding that even if the class does not fit into the FDM world or is to powerful that the DM must let him play or they are a bad DM.

there would also be no living game, the company could not stay in business publishing nothing...

I never said anything about warlock or swordage. I said there was a problem with gunslinger. Not all the options are bad are over powered but there are combos that are broken.

so in your mind a gunslinger is more or less powerful then a Codzilla?

If you need to play with a lot of options then find a DM who does not mind that don't try and force a DM to do it if they don't like all those extra options.

hey wait that cuts both ways...
If you need to play with only core options then find players who does not mind that don't try and force players to do it if they don't like your restrictions...

 

[Elf Witch]

it isn't any more work... they get x number of at will abilities it takes 10 seconds to adapt to that. I mean they are even built like spells. Each time the warlock gets one you learn "Hey he can now do X"

Example: He can shoot a bolt that does 1d6 damage, can see in the dark and cast magic darkness that does damage... goes up a level now his 1d6 blast is 2d6 and can have a larger range...



SO he uses his skills and stats. Tell me again why that is a problem?

IHATE THOSE ADVENTURES... it turns into a very binary either someone gets it or they don't BS moments...



so if your players have bad memories, but are playing high wisdom high Int characters, the characters can't figure that out because the player didn't... that sounds like a horrid set up.

It was designed to test the players a bit and less their characters.



[sblock=DDEX1-1]
Spoiler for the D&D Expeditions adventure DDEX1-1 Defiance in Phlan for those who don't want to know:


that almost seems fair enough.


this writer needs to be disallowed from ever writing anything for D&D again... so just to check, I am supposed to ask every person hit what they eat/are eating... this is the dumbest idea ever. Atleast if it was a skill check you could have the players get the info some how.



not as bad as the soup... but pretty close. I imagine most PCs don't know where the wood for there bows come from, and if I asked 100 DMs over the cources of 10 cons next year we would be lucky if 2 knew where there NPC bows where from... that is BS to expect a PC to ask that...

atleast that is a theme, once you pick up on flowers mattering you can check every flower...

no the CHARACTERS are supposed to do things the PLAYER just tells you and you adjudicate (with or without a roll) how successful.

Example: "Hey, I have a high Insight and Perception, and a great Wisdom and OK Survival, I look for a pattern witch skill can I roll."
as apposed to say the 18 Int 16 Wis wizard who is a investigator being stumped well the 9 int and 11 wis barbarian gets it because by luck his player figured it out first...


or sit around unsure of what the magic question is to ask until the DM throws them a bone... wasting time



OK, then make it multi checks... like say Arcana to figure out there must be a pattern. Insight to notice something, survival to identify the plants, and perception to notice something. There is a HUGE room between make the player guess and make 1 roll.

That adventure could take a year of 5 hour weekly sessions if your players aren't able to pick up on clues well


great, and if I was told that you know what quastions would NEVER be asked...
"Hey where is the wood for your bow from?"
"Hey where are the ingredients for your soup from?"
on the other hand after being told that you know what I might ask "Hey I have +X in Y skill, can I roll it to look for suspicious people"


so since this is supposed to take an hour, what happens if 45 mins into this no one interacted with him?


Think that through... they could talk to that guy for an hour real time and in game time, find out his name, his profession, his family, where he was at 8 oclock on the 6th, detect magic on him, and even make friends with him, taste the soup, and then watch him die... and NEVER KNOW ABOUT THE DAMN PLANT...



you know what, I don't need answers... but damn I need clues that work, and that is rife with ones I could never put togather... mixing that with "don't role play your character this is an out of game test" would make me ready to blow a gastgit...
[/sblock]

well, if it was logical, AND persuasive, then maybe not imediaatly change laws but maybe give him some benfit...



so just to make sure we are on the same page... was that die roll backed up by ingame logic, and a resource use for the game (AKA I put high ranks in intimadet, I should be able to intimidate people)


We played Scourge of the Sword Coast:
[Sblock=spoilers]
so what happens if the PCs figure out she is a succubus, or just don't give up, or have a cool idea instead of taking another mission mid adventure?

man this feels like the worst type of video game... (Why yes I have to get an antidote to save my life, and stop a homicidal clown, but let me just answer this random payphone...)


how is that solving anything?

wait, this adventure sets up a mystery that is only resolved when the villain monologs... ugh...

AHHH!!!! I hate this type of adventure...

I agree
its worse then that, although that is bad enough, it is impossible for you to solve it until the DM hands it to you...
[/sblock]





I would be mad, not nessarly blow up start a fight mad, but I would feel the DM was being a bit over board if they didn't let such a basic part of the game if the PCs wanted it...

go back a step horrible was your word...not mine.


so to teach them a lesson you told them to do something you know they don't like to do then were supprised when they didn't like something you know they don't like ?!?!?!? I am really confused here.

You know they like to power game.
You want to teach them what they like (powergaming is wrong)
You tell them to make characters a way they don't like that will make them unhappy (roll stats)
You figure out they complain when asked to do something they don't like...

you know what that reminds me of. I had an ex girlfriend who loved sea food. I do not eat sea food, at all. 3 sepreate times she had me go to sea food only resterants, all three times she asked why I wasn't eating much... then when she insited I talk about why I was upset, she was shocked to learn that eating food I do not like is disgusting to me...



I agree if you let in re rolls why roll right...

there are players that makes VERY UNHAPPY...
before I finish his though just think that through for a moment... if everyone but 1 person is above average... then the real average (of your game) is higher... if 4 players have 16, 16, 16, 15, 13, 10, then that is the average...


and right there he communicated how he felt, and remember this is a game, no one should ever feel completely worthless in a game...


Oh my god... that is the most monsterus thing I have heard... since the mod designed.


how is that NICE?!?!?!?!?! that is rude, he told you he wasn't having fun and your saying you were nice by having nothing change???

please somebody, anybody... check me here. This sounds insane... you made a friend continue to play a character he is un happy with by threatning to make the character less if he didn't stop complaining... what?!?!?!

I don't want to say what I really think here (or be accused of insulting) please someone else tell me if I read that wrong, because the actions sound a lot like bullying...

I have played in all those modules and had a blast. It was fun to use my brain to figure things out then just roll dice to solve everything. Actually talk to the NPCs and figure out why the lighting was jumping. It was not that hard if you payed attention and actually talked to the NPCs to find the link. Once we figured it for two of them it was easy to find out the link with the others.

When a DM is running a module the players who agreed to play it in have to expect some limits to just how much freedom they have they need to follow the obvious clues to the next step in the module. Yes it can be limiting but it is not like the DM is hiding the fact that you are playing in a module.

This player sounds like a player who does not like any challenges that he can't solve easily and expects the dice to do his thinking for him. He does not sound like a good match for what you want to run but then I understand that you are stuck with him.


I don't know where you are getting plural players having issues in this I am reading it as one player.

Well maybe you should have compromised with your girlfriend and told her look we will take turns picking out the restaurant and if she picked seafood then do what I have done many times I have gone out to places I didn't like. I ordered a drink and maybe an appetizer or a salad and ate when I got home or before I left. The point is the company as much as the food.

It doesn't sound like he bullied the player it sounds like the player is not a good fit. First of all many DMs use rolling for stats I wouldn't have let him reroll I would have said okay you don't want to take the chance of rolling okay you can do a 25 point buy. As a matter of fact that is what I do players have a choice roll and take the roll unless it is truly bad or take a 25 point buy. I do the same with hit points roll and take a chance at getting max or just one or don't roll and take half.