D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[Plane Sailing]

Just finished reading the whole thread.

Firstly - I'm itching to play a 5e wizard now!

Regarding KD's original point - granted that the big spells haven't brought the boom he was expecting, but it appears that is partly because of an extended run of bad luck with the dice, right? Even the party members are joking about the run of bad dice luck! Sometimes that just happens for a while and it is possible that if the dice luck had run the other way it wouldn't even have been an issue

I wonder how much of the view has been affected by the changes in the last two editions for wizards? before 4e, the wizard always started off pretty weak and horrible for his first few levels. I've nurtured enough OD&D & 1e wizards up to 5th level when they first started to feel really useful to recognise that as being part of the 'D&D tradition'! The impression that I have is that relative strength has gone like this

up to 3e
main spells: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
rest of the time: x

4e
main spells: xxxxxxx
rest of the time: xxxxx

5r
main spells: xxxxxxxxx
rest of the time: xxx

The cantrips give wizards some magical way of doing damage all the time, although it feels a little less than 4e where it was equivalent to the martial cantrips, and now it doesn't feel equivalent to the martial melee actions. Main spells feel more powerful than they were in 4e, but less than in 3e.

I seem to remember the designers saying something about wanting to balance 5e across the three pillars of combat, exploration and (something else). It seems to me that because the wizards do have a lot they can bring via spells to the non-combat pillars, that perhaps the designers didn't want to boost their capability in combat?

The other thing that occurred to me and which has only been brought up once is the role of magic items - often low level wizards rely upon low level wands or staffs to boost their combat spell capability; with the lack of the DMG there are fewer of those magic items around I guess?

Cheers

 

[KarinsDad]

I haven't seen a lot of Wizard players saving their best spells for later in 3e or 4e, though it was common in pre-3e at low level. 3e was more '15 MAD' where Wizards would blow all their spells quickly then get the group to stop. In 4e IME Wizards typically use a Daily in every fight if available, but (unlike 3e) not in every round of every fight.

It looks as if 5e Wizards can act much like 3e Wizards without overpowering the game as much, but too early to say for sure yet.

Not my experience at all.

In 4E, our games tended to be the PCs firing off encounter powers until it was obvious that the fight was going seriously against us. At that point, 1 or 2 players might pull out a Daily (and/or Action Points). More if it were a really tough fight. In most fights, most encounter powers were used, but Dailies were not. At level 5 and higher with two Dailies each, it was possible to fire off a Daily each encounter and still have some left over for the tough fights, but whether that happened or not was dependent on player. Some players were willing to fire off a Daily in a non-challenging fight, others were not. Some players saved their Dailies and used their Action Points. It just depended.

In 5E, the paradigm has changed. Short rests take an hour instead of 5 minutes and that totally changes things. At Wills (i.e. weapon attack or cantrips) are used a lot instead of "Encounters" (i.e. abilities that recharge after a short rest). 5E Encounter powers have become the new mini-Dailies.

So like a Daily power in 4E, many "Encounter abilities" in 5E like a Fighter's Extra Attack are often pulled out if the fight looks a bit tougher, but not just used up in the first or even second fight. Some other Encounter abilities like Second Wind are often pulled out the moment it looks like they will help and are not typically saved (this makes sense, use up an Encounter heal instead of a Daily heal). But Dailies are saved in our game. The Bard throws out a spell once ever 2 or 3 fights as does the ranger/wizard. The cleric often buffs PCs ahead of time or heals during short rests, but rarely casts a spell in combat at all.

Healing is not used in 5E like it was in 4E. The moment someone went bloody in 4E, a healer would often fire off a heal (not when I was playing a healer, but when most other players were).

In 5E, a PC tends to only get healed if he or she goes unconscious. Once in a blue moon, a PC will get healed if at 1 or 2 hit points in combat. But healing in 5E (with the possible exception of Healing Word) is definitely a subpar tactic unless the foes are doing a ton of damage. Only if there is a threat that a PC can be one shot killed in 5E does the healing come out heavily. At least in our game. Course, we have Song of Rest in our group, so a lot of healing is saved for short rests.


In 1E to 3E, I do vaguely remembering that as a player, I used to save my spells for when they were really needed. But to tell you the truth, I do not remember for anyone else. I suspect Clerics often used up a lot of their spells to keep the party healthy. I remember making some scrolls for when I needed extra umph. But, it's just too long ago and specifics are lost in the blur and plethora of the thousands of encounters that I have ever played in.

 

[KarinsDad]

Just finished reading the whole thread.

Firstly - I'm itching to play a 5e wizard now!

Regarding KD's original point - granted that the big spells haven't brought the boom he was expecting, but it appears that is partly because of an extended run of bad luck with the dice, right? Even the party members are joking about the run of bad dice luck! Sometimes that just happens for a while and it is possible that if the dice luck had run the other way it wouldn't even have been an issue

I wonder how much of the view has been affected by the changes in the last two editions for wizards? before 4e, the wizard always started off pretty weak and horrible for his first few levels. I've nurtured enough OD&D & 1e wizards up to 5th level when they first started to feel really useful to recognise that as being part of the 'D&D tradition'! The impression that I have is that relative strength has gone like this

up to 3e
main spells: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
rest of the time: x

4e
main spells: xxxxxxx
rest of the time: xxxxx

5r
main spells: xxxxxxxxx
rest of the time: xxx

The cantrips give wizards some magical way of doing damage all the time, although it feels a little less than 4e where it was equivalent to the martial cantrips, and now it doesn't feel equivalent to the martial melee actions. Main spells feel more powerful than they were in 4e, but less than in 3e.

I seem to remember the designers saying something about wanting to balance 5e across the three pillars of combat, exploration and (something else). It seems to me that because the wizards do have a lot they can bring via spells to the non-combat pillars, that perhaps the designers didn't want to boost their capability in combat?

The other thing that occurred to me and which has only been brought up once is the role of magic items - often low level wizards rely upon low level wands or staffs to boost their combat spell capability; with the lack of the DMG there are fewer of those magic items around I guess?

Cheers

I don't disagree with you at all. My PC would have killed for a "Wand of something offensive". Our DM handed out a Headband of Intellect and I convinced the Ranger/Wizard to take it instead. (long story).

With regard to the bad dice rolls, I do think that this is an area that strongly influences my opinion about 5E.

Without a bonus to damage, cantrips seem like pxxxing in the wind. Rolling a 1 or 2 for damage on the D6 of Acid Splash or the D8 of Chill Touch when other PCs are doing a minimum of 4 and often doing 6 or 8 or 10 seems like, "Why the heck am I even playing this game?".


The swinginess of the D20 roll that was brought under control with bounded accuracy was not done with cantrips. Cantrips are super swingy.


I do think that this is a bit of a design flaw in 5E after 5 years of 4E where Wizard's At Will powers did 75% to 85% of the damage of other PC's At Will powers.

Doing 1 point of damage against creatures with 15 or 20 hit points is just so much a waste of time.

A wizard could blow through his spells in a fight with foes that have 15 or 20 hit points, but for some people, the reason to play a wizard is to have options when the party is in trouble. My wife is playing the Bard and she got into a boss fight (her and the Fighter vs. the cleric and half-dragon at level 3 in HotDQ) as the first fight of the day. Both players used up every single resource they had (including potions of healing). The player of the fighter didn't care too much because he doesn't have Dailies. He was right as rain after the first short rest, regaining Extra Attack / Second Wind / Superiority Dice. But she was out of spells and it bugged her a bit that she had no options with the exception of Bardic Inspiration. She couldn't Sleep foes, she couldn't heal. She couldn't do anything that she had designed her PC to do. We did 6 more encounters that day and she was really discouraged by about the fourth one that the rest of the players did not want to take a long rest.

So yeah, blowing through spells is an option if the player wants to be Nodwick for the rest of the adventuring day. It's a choice. Nodwick casting cantrips now, or Nodwick later on when it really matters.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

average of 1d10 is 4.5, average of 1d8+3 is 6.5, about 70% of the efficiency of non spellcasters.
An elven spellcaster is free to use a longbow for 1d8+2 or +3 damage too.

An evoker (the standard wizard) adds his int modifier to evocation catrips at level 10 and above, and non evocation cantrips usually ask for a saving throw, where you are doing half damage on a successful saving throw from level 6 and above.

While those abilities come a little late, the start appearing about the time when other classes get multiattack and ability increases for the relevant stat, when your longbow (or crossbow for non-elfs) attacks start falling behind.

While I can see your concerns, I don´t share them. Our wizard more than did fine using only his bow, much to my dismay.

 

[Mallus]

This thread has inspired me to grab True Strike for my 2nd level sorcerer -- for when I really, really want to pop a Chromatic Orb into a bad guy.

 

[Celtavian]

I hit level 7. I've fought a Legendary Creature, a couple of stone golems, a mage, and a troll. The wizard is toned down in overall effect, but still very potent.

1. Damage: I can't match the martial damage dealers in overall damage. The Great Weapon fighter can do a ton of damage quickly with a bless on. The paladin can smite for a bunch of spike damage. They usually almost double my damage or more in a round compared a cantrip. I'm accustomed to a martial character's higher raw single target damage. It was that way in 3E.

Where the martials cannot touch the wizard is type of damage and extra effects. When we fought the troll, the fighter would have probably died. With no negative hit points and the troll popping up every round to get its full attack, not having someone to drop fire on it or use chill touch would have led to a nearly impossible to win fight, especially considering the troll had fire resistance. Shocking Grasp has been excellent for stopping AoOs and reaction effects like the shield spell or other such defenses. I can do necrotic, fire, and electricity with my at will abilities. Wizards can do melee or ranged damage with equal aplomb.

Wizards (and probably sorcerers and warlocks) are kings of AoE damage. Martials can't touch me for AoE damage.

2. Effects: Martials can't really do effects. There are spells like slow, hypnotic pattern, and sleep that are immensely useful in turning a fight. Having a fly spell handy is vital because a flying creature with reach can absolutely destroy a fighter or other martial without casting ability. Not many magic items in the game to give fly. Fly potions we've seen only allow fly at ground speed. Flying Creatures can move at their full speed and do a full attack getting out of range of a slow fly.

3. Defenses: Wizards have far more versatile defenses with spells like shield, mirror image, and invisibility just like before. Blur is also an extremely nice spell.

4. Scouting: Minor Illusion is an amazing cantrip for scouting. It's pretty easy to obtain the Stealth skill as a wizard. You can do quite an efficient job as a scout not having to wear heavy armor to be protected.

5. Movement: Misty Step is a nice way to escape combat without wasting an action to Disengage. Martials have to do this the old fashioned way.

Basically, to sum it up is that wizard spells may not end fights like they used to, but we're just as versatile as ever in combat compared to martials. There's not getting around noticing how limited martial characters are. They pretty much hit stuff. The paladin can do some healing and has some nifty protective powers. Fighters hit stuff real good. Rogues hit stuff good enough and are highly mobile with amazing skills. Rangers hit stuff. Wizards can do a bunch of stuff with spells that can't be replaced by classes other than another caster. No class can change their spells as easily as the wizard on a daily basis. The bard player has nice spells and abilities, but he must select his spells very carefully. Whereas I add anything I get to my book and prepare it if I feel like it. Arcane Recovery is damn nice. Sculpt Spell is also very nice.

Overall, I still feel very unique and powerful as a wizard. I'm looking forward to 9th level spells. I feel the wizard is the master of many things. But if you want to play a caster damage dealer, you play a Sorcerer. Sorcerers are the caster damage dealers in 5E. That's not the wizard's niche, though he can do some decent damage. I wouldn't focus on it too much. The wizard's power comes from unmatched versatility.

 

[Mort]

I don't disagree with you at all. My PC would have killed for a "Wand of something offensive". Our DM handed out a Headband of Intellect and I convinced the Ranger/Wizard to take it instead. (long story).

With regard to the bad dice rolls, I do think that this is an area that strongly influences my opinion about 5E.

Without a bonus to damage, cantrips seem like pxxxing in the wind. Rolling a 1 or 2 for damage on the D6 of Acid Splash or the D8 of Chill Touch when other PCs are doing a minimum of 4 and often doing 6 or 8 or 10 seems like, "Why the heck am I even playing this game?".

You're discounting the extra effects many cantrips have. For example, the Wizard in my group used Fire bolt to set fire to a tent from 120 feet away.

The swinginess of the D20 roll that was brought under control with bounded accuracy was not done with cantrips. Cantrips are super swingy.


I do think that this is a bit of a design flaw in 5E after 5 years of 4E where Wizard's At Will powers did 75% to 85% of the damage of other PC's At Will powers.

Doing 1 point of damage against creatures with 15 or 20 hit points is just so much a waste of time.

True 1d10 etc. can be very swingy - but I see that as the tradeoff for having other gears where other classes don't.

A wizard could blow through his spells in a fight with foes that have 15 or 20 hit points, but for some people, the reason to play a wizard is to have options when the party is in trouble. My wife is playing the Bard and she got into a boss fight (her and the Fighter vs. the cleric and half-dragon at level 3 in HotDQ) as the first fight of the day. Both players used up every single resource they had (including potions of healing). The player of the fighter didn't care too much because he doesn't have Dailies. He was right as rain after the first short rest, regaining Extra Attack / Second Wind / Superiority Dice. But she was out of spells and it bugged her a bit that she had no options with the exception of Bardic Inspiration. She couldn't Sleep foes, she couldn't heal. She couldn't do anything that she had designed her PC to do. We did 6 more encounters that day and she was really discouraged by about the fourth one that the rest of the players did not want to take a long rest.

So yeah, blowing through spells is an option if the player wants to be Nodwick for the rest of the adventuring day. It's a choice. Nodwick casting cantrips now, or Nodwick later on when it really matters.

Wizards get arcane recovery, so at least for the 1st short rest between long rests Wizards get quite a bit back (by 3rd level 2 first level or 1 second level spell recovered is significant).

Further, most combats where the wizard expends significant resources (at low level meaning 2nd and 1st level spells) either 1) The fighter ends up low enough on HPs that the party angles for at least a short and likely a long rest (unless it's early and the fighter has plenty of HD left but then the wizard likely has arcane recovery too) or 2) The wizard's expending resources saved the fighter from significant engagement and he has plenty of HPs - in which case, hey that's the trade-off.

Also, in addition to cantrips, Wizards get rituals - these can be very significant out of combat and should not be discounted (as they can be cast without preparation).

 

[KarinsDad]

You're discounting the extra effects many cantrips have. For example, the Wizard in my group used Fire bolt to set fire to a tent from 120 feet away.

I'm not discounting the riders.

I just don't see them as "Ohh, look what the Wizard can do!" due to the infrequency of them affecting anything. Acid Splash targeting two foes tends to be the one rider which is useful the most. The rest seem extremely situational.


Even cantrips like the Bard's Vicious Mockery is more seriously "game affecting" than most of the Wizard cantrip riders. Sure, Vicious Mockery does sucky damage, but it's the disadvantage rider against a Lieutenant or a Boss or even a normal foot solider (i.e. someone who takes 2 or 3 shots to take out and is not a one shot mook) where that cantrip can be encounter changing.

Nothing in the Wizard's cantrip bag of tricks is on par.

 

[Joe Liker]

average of 1d10 is 4.5, average of 1d8+3 is 6.5, about 70% of the efficiency of non spellcasters.
An elven spellcaster is free to use a longbow for 1d8+2 or +3 damage too.

The average of 1d10 is 5.5.

The average of 1d8+3 is (4.5 + 3) = 7.5.

And evoker is no more standard than any other wizard, but it is the wizard you choose if you consider damage the primary measure of effectiveness.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Without a bonus to damage, cantrips seem like pxxxing in the wind. Rolling a 1 or 2 for damage on the D6 of Acid Splash or the D8 of Chill Touch when other PCs are doing a minimum of 4 and often doing 6 or 8 or 10 seems like, "Why the heck am I even playing this game?".

I wonder why there isn't a bonus to damage? It seems natural that when people use Dex to hit they had dex to damage, use str to hit they use str to damage - so why not add int (or wis or cha) to damage with spells?

(I've not read the PHB in detail or followed any WotC articles which may have had some insight on this)