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D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

Cantrips are still just cantrips so I don't know why people are expecting them to be anything more than that. A wizards real power comes from his daily spells. Cantrips are really your back up, your crossbow or sling but only better.

I think some of you are really looking too hard into this.
 

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Why would you not include the rest of the post where I addressed that part? 4d10 is not an average hit. The best damage fighter at 17th level will do 2d6+8 damage without an energy weapon (including +3 weapon) or 2d6+18 using Great Weapon Master with a -5 to hit. That is an average of 15 to 25 damage. Your average wizard single Fire Bolt will do 22 or 27 as an evoker. At the moment we don't know if they will have items to boost magical attacks. The Great Weapon fighter does quite a bit more damage per round than the wizard versus his cantrip. You can spike your damage with higher damage spells or spells that do damage with a bonus action.

You're ignoring a lot of things like superiority dice, eldritch knight spells, great weapon fighter die rerolls, MC abilities from things like barbarian or rogue etc.
 

You're ignoring a lot of things like superiority dice, eldritch knight spells, great weapon fighter die rerolls, MC abilities from things like barbarian or rogue etc.

I'm not ignoring them. None of those things do much but damage. I run an Arcane Trickster rogue. They do damage. I took mostly defensive spells and sleep to set up a finishing move. Superiority dice are used to support a fighter's attack. They don't do anything else out of combat or provide group utility.

I'm running in two campaigns. I've seen the arcane trickster rogue, totem warrior barbarian, battlemaster fighter, oath of vengeance paladin, life cleric, college of lore bard, moon druid, hunter of prey ranger, multiclass fighter/wizard, and evoker wizard in play through their first 7 levels. Out of all of them, only the college of lore bard is close to on par with the wizard for power versatility. Every other class has things they do well such as the fighter doing damage and the barbarian taking damage, but none of them can touch what a wizard brings to the table. Wizards are still the best at having something to do for nearly every situation. The wizard is going to become more versatile as he levels with more capabilities other classes can't touch.
 
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Yes, of course... had d8 compared with d6+3 at first, but then I second guessed and increased both dice... forgot to change the average...

edit: the evoker is the standard, as it is the wizard used in basic DnD 5 and it is the one you should refer to if you are doing damage per round calculations.
 

I'm not ignoring them. None of those things do much but damage. I run an Arcane Trickster rogue. They do damage. I took mostly defensive spells and sleep to set up a finishing move. Superiority dice are used to support a fighter's attack. They don't do anything else out of combat or provide group utility.

I'm running in two campaigns. I've seen the arcane trickster rogue, totem warrior barbarian, battlemaster fighter, oath of vengeance paladin, life cleric, college of lore bard, moon druid, hunter of prey ranger, multiclass fighter/wizard, and evoker wizard in play. Through their first 7 levels. Out of all of them, only the college of lore bard is close to on par with the wizard for power versatility. Every other class has things they do well such as the fighter doing damage and the barbarian taking damage, but none of them can touch what a wizard brings to the table. Wizards are still the best at having something to do for nearly every situation. The wizard is going to become more versatile as he levels with more capabilities other classes can't touch.

To turn this thread a bit more positive, let's discuss this part. The wizard has high versatility. I'm willing to accept that, but what do you define as versatility? Having the right tool for the job, perhaps?

What does your wizard player, other members of the party, and you do to make sure that that versatility comes up?

Honestly curious, because I know what I do, and I'm a happy wizard player. Also know that I end up talking to my DM out of game a lot so he doesn't have to make on the fly rulings that make no sense snd piss people off :)
 

edit: the evoker is the standard, as it is the wizard used in basic DnD 5 and it is the one you should refer to if you are doing damage per round calculations.

I disagree - evoker is (by definition!) the specialist. He should be doing more than the average wizard. It is the average wizard that you should use in such calculations.

That is, if you think the calculations add any value to the discussion. Over time I've increasingly come round to the view that they don't really add much actual value to the discussions at all (for a variety of reasons).
 

Why would you not include the rest of the post where I addressed that part? 4d10 is not an average hit. The best damage fighter at 17th level will do 2d6+8 damage without an energy weapon (including +3 weapon) or 2d6+18 using Great Weapon Master with a -5 to hit. That is an average of 15 to 25 damage. Your average wizard single Fire Bolt will do 22 or 27 as an evoker. At the moment we don't know if they will have items to boost magical attacks. The Great Weapon fighter does quite a bit more damage per round than the wizard versus his cantrip. You can spike your damage with higher damage spells or spells that do damage with a bonus action.

Not sure why you would expect to do equal damage to a fighter with your basic magic attack, when the fighter is very limited in capabilities and the wizard is not. Fighter and wizard abilities are not equivalent. All the fighter has is his basic attack ability that he'll use over and over again. If they gave casters cantrips as powerful as the fighter's attacks, why play a fighter?

With Battle Master and Eldritch Knight, fighters have a lot more than their basic attack ability. By 17th level, the Battle Master Great Weapon Master with a +2 weapon (which I expect will be fairly common in most games) can do 2D8 (reroll 1s and 2s) +D10 +17 -5 to hit with advantage feinting attack for an average 30 points of damage and he can do it 6 times per short rest. Even after he runs out of superiority dice, he can still do it once per encounter.

Now, he can only nova like this once per round due to the bonus action. But still, if he hits with all 4 attacks (which would be fairly common against many foes at +13 to hit, not even counting advantages that the spell casters give the team), 15 15 15 30 = 75 points of damage. He probably will not be running into any resistance issues. And that's without other shenanigans. It will not be uncommon for a fighter to average 60 or more points of damage per round for a tough fight when the big guns are being pulled out.


Without a nova, the Fighter is doing 60 points of damage if all 4 hit (3 out of 4 hitting is probably going to at least be the norm).

The Wizard is doing 22 points of damage if his cantrip hits (3 out of 4 rounds hitting is probably going to at least be the norm).

So, the Fighter is doing nearly 3 times the damage of the Wizard.


When the Wizard novas for a round, he won't be using Meteor Swarm. That's not a power used in combat a high percentage of the time. He'll be using Chain Lightning (as an example) for 10D10 for 55 / save 27 points against 4 (6th level slot) to 7 (9th level slot) targets.

So, he is doing 220 to 385 damage (if all saves are failed). 3 to 5 times what the Fighter is doing when he novas.


At high level, it is not unreasonable for the fighter to be doing 3x the damage round in and round out, and the wizard doing 3x or more during a nova. The wizard only has 4 6th to 9th spells (plus Arcane Recovery) per day. He'll be doing smaller novas when those are gone. The fighter can nova a couple of dozen times per day with 3 short rests.


I don't think that cantrips should be as powerful as fighter attacks. I do think that low level cantrips should be less swingy.
 

The overall picture that I'm getting from this thread is this:

1. The overall premise "low level wizards really do suck in 5e" doesn't stand up.
2. If the premise had been that "low level wizards can suck in 5e combat" then there is certainly some evidence for that
3. But combat isn't normally all there is to D&D, and low level wizards have always been sucky in combat.

I can't remember, but I don't think that the premise of 5e was going to be "equal ability to impact combat all the time at all levels", but they were aiming for "equally fun to play".

BUT, (and its a big but so I cannot lie), it appears that the wizard has a more limited range of 'bring out the melee changing spell' than before. Sleep is about it, and if it isn't thematically appropriate for your wizard then that's just tough!

Now, I started playing in OD&D where -every- 1st level wizard took either Sleep or Charm Person. Sleep to take out 4-16 orcs at a stroke or charm person to make one tough humanoid your fighting buddy for the rest of the adventure. The latter was more risky, because saves sometimes happened, so Sleep was normally the smart choice for every wizard at 1st level. Nobody worried about theme in those days, they worried about surviving long enough for another level!

I don't think that the 5e designers were looking for that level of fidelity to the traditional D&D feel, but maybe they have ended up there?
 

I don't think that cantrips should be as powerful as fighter attacks. I do think that low level cantrips should be less swingy.

Do you think your DM would be up for trying out either:
1. Casters add casting stat to damage with cantrips
2. Change damage die so that 1d8 becomes 1d6+1, 1d10 becomes 1d8+1? Same average, less chance of really rubbish damage?
3. Change damage die so that 1d8 becomes 2d4; minor damage bump but much less swingy on average?
 

Do you think your DM would be up for trying out either:
1. Casters add casting stat to damage with cantrips
2. Change damage die so that 1d8 becomes 1d6+1, 1d10 becomes 1d8+1? Same average, less chance of really rubbish damage?
3. Change damage die so that 1d8 becomes 2d4; minor damage bump but much less swingy on average?

Probably not 1, but 2 or 3 would probably fly.
 

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