D&D 5E I have the DMG!

[Ahrimon]

Very dramatic. However...

You can do much less and invalidate the challenge of CR 20 monsters and thus break the system.

It's not the only way to get high AC. There are several ways to get to this level of AC.

This problem will get worse. We don't even have the full list of magic items from the DMG yet with Ioun Stones, Bracers of Defense and the like or the first splat book with new classes, spells, feats and even more magic items.

PCs can reach ACs that encounters rated as deadly can't hit and simultaneously have AB that mean they rarely miss.

As I've said before, there are games out there with bounded accuracy. It's very easy to see the difference between their mechanics and 5Es and there is a difference because 5E is not a bounded accuracy game. It is a game that is intended to be as simple as possible for kick-down-the-door gaming while maintaining some of the feel of previous editions and to be that simple things got sacrificed and one of them was bounded accuracy.

The point that you are missing is that the default for bounded accuracy is NO magic items. None. Zero. Zilch. Nadda. This has been stated by the developers on several occasions.

If a DM chooses to give out magic items then that DM is choosing to stretch or break the bounded accuracy. I would be greatly surprised if the DMG doesn't explain this outright.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

You can do much less and invalidate the challenge of CR 20 monsters and thus break the system.

Alright, I'll bite. Let's assume your DM has only ever given out +2 items(you can assume an armor and a shield), no ioun stones, no rings of protection, nothing else that gives a bonus to AC.

Let's assume the spellcasters in the group are using their spells to shore up the lower ACs in the party(since you already have a good AC and the monsters just switched targets to the low AC people in the group) or using non-buffing spells to help out in combat so they can't cast any spells on you.

Now, explain how with "much less", you will invalidate the challenge of a CR 20 monster.

 

[Warunsun]

The new release date of the Dungeon Master's Guide seems to be very poorly chosen. The day before the release is a national holiday. The day of the release is an unofficial holiday and some mom and pop game stores are planning on being closed for both days and the first one I called is planning on being closed for three days that week. I did find one 30 miles from my location in a bordering state that does plan on selling them.

 

[Chocolategravy]

In my group the Fighter with...

I just gave you an example where a wizard with no magic items would have 28 AC.

The point that you are missing is that the default for bounded accuracy is NO magic items. None. Zero. Zilch. Nadda. This has been stated by the developers on several occasions.

No, it hasn't been stated. What has been stated is that giving out magic items is the default by the DMG. That if you play any published adventure, you get magic items. If you play any official event like encounters, you get magic items.

Magic items are how you are supposed to play the game. It's how EVERY previous edition of the game has been played and is part of the flavor of the game they intended to keep.

If they "balanced" the game assuming no magic items while ramming them down your throat then that would be just about the stupidest thing any designer has ever done.

Alright, I'll bite. Let's assume your DM has only ever given out +2 items(you can assume an armor and a shield), no ioun stones, no rings of protection, nothing else that gives a bonus to AC.

Let's assume the spellcasters in the group are using their spells to shore up the lower ACs in the party(since you already have a good AC and the monsters just switched targets to the low AC people in the group) or using non-buffing spells to help out in combat so they can't cast any spells on you.

Now, explain how with "much less", you will invalidate the challenge of a CR 20 monster.

Requiring everyone in a party to have very high AC is a strawman. Regardless, it is still quite possible even with just +2 gear and casters only buffing themselves. Paladin and cleric 27 AC, wizard 32 AC. Whatever your 4rth slot is should be able to get at least 27 AC and if they're paladin splash, the entire party will also have +10 on all saves and resistance to all spell damage thanks to two paladins in the party.

 

[Evenglare]

The new release date of the Dungeon Master's Guide seems to be very poorly chosen. The day before the release is a national holiday. The day of the release is an unofficial holiday and some mom and pop game stores are planning on being closed for both days and the first one I called is planning on being closed for three days that week. I did find one 30 miles from my location in a bordering state that does plan on selling them.

I'm quite confused, the official release date is the 9th. What unofficial holiday is this? I don't count that early release as an official release btw, its more of a sort of "preorder" incentive, even though im aware thats a poorly worded term for this particular event. If it were it would be called the official release.

 

[Warunsun]

I don't count that early release as an official release btw, its more of a sort of "preorder" incentive, even though im aware thats a poorly worded term for this particular event.

The rest of the gaming community counts the WPN release as pretty official regardless of the general Amazon/bookstore date. And no matter how you call it it was very poorly selected.

 

[thalmin]

The new release date of the Dungeon Master's Guide seems to be very poorly chosen. The day before the release is a national holiday. The day of the release is an unofficial holiday and some mom and pop game stores are planning on being closed for both days and the first one I called is planning on being closed for three days that week. I did find one 30 miles from my location in a bordering state that does plan on selling them.

I don't know how many small stores are closed for that weekend. We have always been closed for Thanksgiving, but Black Friday has always been a good day for our business, long before it was called Black Friday. Likewise that Saturday (Small Business Saturday) has also always been very busy (going back fo 30+ years). Other game and hobby shops in our area have also been open those days. Although we are not located in a college town, which can make a big difference.

 

[Falling Icicle]

But the entire point is to get away from stacking rules. And I am pretty much okay with this, because yeah, I think +1 chain and +1 shield should be better armor than if either wasn't +1. Therefore they should stack.

I see your point. It would be disappointing to find a +1 shield and not get any benefit from it because you already had +1 armor. That said, not all magic items are useful for all characters. A 20 Str barbarian doesn't get any benefit from wearing gauntlets of ogre power, for example.

The existence of magic items in the game are up to the GM. It's the GM's responsibility to make sure his/her game runs. If the GM says nothing stacks with magic items and the player doesn't like it, then the GM can just go with the default. Which is no magic items at all.

It is true that magic items are optional, but I think it's safe to say that most people include magic items in their games. Some groups include more of them than others, but I don't think I'm making any great leap in assuming that games that don't include any magic items at all are pretty rare. In any case, any rule that is designed for the game should be balanced, optional or not. Feats are also optional, but people would certainly complain if feats were wildly imbalanced and game breaking, and they'd have every right to. Fortunately, they are not.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the magic items in 5e are broken. I will wait until I have the DMG and see them in play before I make any final judgment on that matter. I'm just saying that the fact that they're optional wouldn't be a very good excuse if they were broken.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I see your point. It would be disappointing to find a +1 shield and not get any benefit from it because you already had +1 armor. That said, not all magic items are useful for all characters. A 20 Str barbarian doesn't get any benefit from wearing gauntlets of ogre power, for example.



It is true that magic items are optional, but I think it's safe to say that most people include magic items in their games. Some groups include more of them than others, but I don't think I'm making any great leap in assuming that games that don't include any magic items at all are pretty rare. In any case, any rule that is designed for the game should be balanced, optional or not. Feats are also optional, but people would certainly complain if feats were wildly imbalanced and game breaking, and they'd have every right to. Fortunately, they are not.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the magic items in 5e are broken. I will wait until I have the DMG and see them in play before I make any final judgment on that matter. I'm just saying that the fact that they're optional wouldn't be a very good excuse if they were broken.

In 5e, I think like 2e, balance is controlled by the DM, and imo that's the best way. He can see what's going on at his table between his players, and give out items to keep the party in sync power wise. Then, if they become too powerful for typical monster CR guidelines, he just throws those guidelines away, and doubles the monsters, or uses higher tier monsters, or customises his monsters to further challenge his table. Or any other number of solutions. The game cant really be broken party vs monsters wise (the DM can always add more monsters). Where it can break is power balance between PCs, which increases the likelihood of TPKs or games simply folding due to "one man shows".

 

[Morrus]

The rest of the gaming community counts the WPN release as pretty official regardless of the general Amazon/bookstore date. And no matter how you call it it was very poorly selected.

Complete nonsense. Movie release dates are time sensitive because they have a short window. Books are not so sensitive. RPGs are utterly not. They sell for years, not days.

Pathfinder's chart position today (6 years after launch) isn't because they launched on Thursday instead of Friday.