• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Why should I allow Multiclassing ?

Mephista

Adventurer
I don't mean to come off like jumping on your opinions. I brought up the genie/patron thing for a reason, but I probably should have been clearer.

If a player comes to you wanting a genie as their Warlock patron, why not just go with it? Why raise an argument in the first place -- and why is an argument your first response. It seems trivially easy to make a genie work as a patron -- it takes as much effort/rationalization to problematize it.

So why make a problem instead of a solution? This is a question of DM'ing philosophy.
I was talking about arguing in the general. As in, something that might come up in casual conversation about the game. Player / DM agency and philosophy didn't fact in. If a player came up, I might talk about how I have story elements tied into each class in the world, and the repercussions of it. I generally do.

In person before a game, I'm actually rather permissive. However, I've had bad experience with multiclassing, and I'm confident in my abilities to handle things like career changes on my own without the current multiclass rules.

So you've run several 5e campaigns to at least mid-level and observed multiclass PCs lag behind their single class counterparts?
I generally run one game myself, starting at 5th level, and play in two others. We've been doing this since the playtest packet came out, with those multiclass rules. Its not hard to have several examples already.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said extensively, but I have run into it on several occasions now. And I should note that this is an attempt at gestalt / hybrid multiclassing, not dipping.

I won't deny my view isn't bitter from experience, but I still don't' like it. If more people do like it, then more power to them at their table. At mine, I shy away from it because my experience is that its just a headache.


How is Agonizing Blast categorically different from a Sorcerer's Elemental Affinity? Both add CHA to cantrip damage. Other that one has the word "agonizing" in it's name...
By that rational, I can ignore the entire fluff of the Patron for the warlock, and put it on any class. Its just a bunch of words in front of mechanics.

Either we take the fluff of the class as a whole, or none of it. Since we're talking about Patrons being the reason for choosing warlock as the class ((ie class fluff)), then I'm going to have to assume that all the titles that refer to darkness, shadows, life drinking, cursing, and the like apply as well.

Because, if you want to really scrub all the fluff away from all the classes, you can. Paladins can be described as just another warrior that happen to be able to use a form of energy necrotic creatures like undead are weak to, but little different from a, say, an eldritch knight. Clerics don't have to have gods. And so on. I don't do that for my game, though I've been in some that had. I prefer taking all the fluff as a whole.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

MrMyth

First Post
Be a bard [valor] and play your warlord guy. Can't? Why not? Need other class why? Be an Eldritch Knight and play a Bladesinger guy. Can't? Why not? Need other class why?

Player: "I want to play a warrior obsessed with alchemy and using transmutation magic to enhance his own body into the perfect fighting machine. Can I play a Fighter / Wizard (Transmuter)?"

DM: "Hey, did you check out the Eldritch Knight? It's a build for the Fighter designed to blend magic and weaponry, seems like it might be a good fit."

Player: "Yeah, I saw that, but it actually focused on Abjuration and Evocation magic. I could only learn a very small amount of Transmutation, and wouldn't get any of the cool Transmuter features."

DM: "Well, why not just play a full Transmuter then, and spend your feats on gaining armor and weapon proficiency?"

Player: "Yeah, that... that would take a while before I really have enough feats to do that... "

DM: "Well, that's what you get for wanting to play a wizard who can wear armor and wield a sword. It wouldn't be fair for you to just get those features for free."

Player: "But it wouldn't be for free! It would be using this system, right here in the rules, that is designed to let you do exactly this sort of thing, and is intended to be balanced with all the other characters at the table!"

DM: "You really should be more like Bob over here. He has chosen a nice, balanced character in Anger Breakfist, the Barbarian that hits everything for All of the Damage. His background is that he wants to Kill All of the Things and Take All of the Loot. Much better than that 'warp your own flesh into a living weapon' min/maxing nonsense you came up with."
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fast moving thread...

Well, I haven't seen 5Ed's rules up close- I haven't bought them yet, but plan to- so I can't speak to how much I would or would not like them. Suffice it to say, I'll use them as I have used the MC rules in past editions. Which is to say, to model character concepts as best I can. For me, it has never been about power grabs, and never will be.

In 3.X, most optimizers would call my PCs "sub-optimal", sometimes amazingly so. In truth, I think 100% of my 3.X spellcasters beyond 5th level have been multiclassed. In 4Ed, I actually DID use the MC feats, and- while I didn't actually care for those rules as a replacement for 3.X style MC rules- it worked fine for that PC, on both a mechanical and conceptual level.

Y'all know your players best, but let me say that, while there are many HRs I could tolerate for a game of D&D, excising multiclassing- even if I don't particularly care for the MC rules- would be a non-starter for me.
 
Last edited:

Mephista

Adventurer
Regardless of what abilities you yourself may take, it is entirely possible to build a good-aligned, fey pact warlock with powers focused on things like deception and being mischevious. (My fey warlock quite likes to Hex folks into being bad at dex checks, simply so I can mock them as they stumble about.) And on the topic of curses - the idea of cursing enemies is not exactly far afield from many legends of the genie, which are often about wishes being fulfilled in terrible and ironic ways.
I consider cursing, of any ilk, to be dark magic. Frankly speaking, that's not a good character - that's pretty amoral and Id driven at best, outright cruel at the worst. Making someone suffer like that, even mildly, is not a good action. Remember, the fey of lore are not nice. They were feared by people for a reason.

Also remember that you can have pacts with Fiends and Beholders and still be a good aligned character; dark magic does not make you evil. Likewise, you can be a paladin without being good.

Similarly, I think it is a bit simplistic to say that "Agonizing Blast" is somehow 'extra mean' because it makes an attack more painful for the enemy... but that the elemental attacks a sorcerer throws around, such as wreathing someone in fire, are totally different.
Those are just two examples I threw out. The entire class is like that. If it was just one thing, then sure, I'd say it was a reach. But the entire class has names and references like that. You can't just ignore it all.

Well, I suppose you could, but I find that to be nothing more than cherry picking what you want to keep. When taken as a whole, the warlock definitely has a dark edge to it. The warlock's lore, from the first time it appeared in 3e, through the sister-classes of binder and hexblade, to 4e, has been dark magic user and researcher of forbidden lore.

Look, honestly, I probably agree with you that having genie as a sorcerer thing is more appropriate. But the force with which you were arguing against any portrayals of a warlock that didn't match your own personal vision... did seem a bit much.
I was asked why I considered the sorcerer, and I responded with my views, and then was accused of ignoring the fluff of the class, and responded by pointing out more fluff. Of course I was arguing to defend my case! I'm the one being accused!

I was the one who had to defend my view of the warlock, not tell anyone else they couldn't play theirs.
 

On the original question, I'd say only allow it if you feel it will be appropriate to your campaign. You have to make a judgment based on a balance of several issues: player desires, campaign identity, minmaxing concerns, etc.

If your players are going to use it to min-max, and you don't want that in your campaign, then I'd recommend against allowing it. If that is the only reason, I'd make sure they actually are going to min-max, though. Some players who are completely capable of min-maxing are also completely willing not to. As long as they are willing to respect your wishes, it isn't necessarily true that multiclassing = min-maxing.

If multiclassing messing with your sense of your campaign world and makes it unsatisfying for you, then I would recommend disallowing it. An unhappy DM is an unhappy group.

Personally, I think multiclassing can be used for desirable or undesirable reasons. In my campaigns a class is about fluff as much as about crunch. I allow multiclassing, and I don't even require you to jump through hoops of training time or extensive justification for it (no offense to those who do). But I do require all character concepts to fit my campaign, and my campaigns often have certain character parameters. Being a fighter or a wizard, or whatever, means you have had the training and identified with that class. It isn't a set of powers you can refluff to create a new custom class. If you are dipping for a power combo first, and trying to justify it second, I'm going to discourage that. On the other hand if your concept involves two classes, and you just happen to decide whether you want 4 or 5 levels in one of them based on what feature you will get out of it, that's fine. You already planned a character who included significant investment in that class identity, you are just fine tuning it with rules awareness.

In general, it seems to me that 1-2 levels of any class is usually a min-maxing dip first, role-playing second--although there might be exceptions.

On the other hand trying to more or less evenly split your levels as you progress is almost always a strong story-driven character concept, and it almost never makes a character more powerful. More often than not, it weakens a character. In AD&D/hybrid style multiclassing, where you choose your classes at level 1 and are stuck with them, multiclassing is also very likely to be a character concept choice instead of a power-gaming choice.

Just kinda wondering (because I play in pro Multiclassing Groups) what some of you guys think about this:

This will allow me to develop some of my philosophy on the issues, so I'll go ahead and comment on how I would handle this as your DM.

I want to play a Holy Warrior of the Good Dragon God.

Okay, sounds good. I'm going to assume we are in a fairly typical traditional D&D world. Ie, Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms (1e-3e eras), and I tend to ignore the more gonzo aspects of 3e Forgotten Realms. If that doesn't fit your idea of a campaign setting you are on board with, none of this will be relevant to you. However, were I your DM, I would have told you about the campaign world before I invited you to make a character, so we'll assume you're on board for the purposes of this commentary.

The Good Dragon God is going to be Bahamut, unless you are interested in one of the lesser draconic deities. We can go over them and see which ones you like. Since you are a humanoid, this is a rather odd option and we'll have to work out why you worship a draconic god in your backstory. Dwarves don't have a racial hatred of dragons, so it won't be hard to justify, but it will take some approval.

I start out as a Mountain Dwarf Warlock with the Good Dragon being my patron (use the Arch Devil from the PHB).

Say whaaaat?

Okay, so you are a dwarf who worships a draconic deity. Well, that's certainly more difficult than being one of those crazy eclectic humans. Dwarves are a lot more culturally normalized and don't tend to run across every spectrum like it's going out of style, so you're draconic deity worshipping dwarf is already problematic. Not insurmountable, but you are setting yourself up as a weirdo, and we'll have to discuss it and see why he has this sort of religious inclination, and what sort of clan he comes from and where his sanity is sitting, etc.

Now...warlock? Dwarf warlock? This is where I "call you into my office" and ask you to explain to me why you brought a dwarf warlock to work. It's pretty darn far out there.

Take 5 levels of Warlock- Get to 2nd attacks
Then take 2 levels of Paladin to get the SMITE ability
Then take the the rest of the levels in SORCERER to gain more spell to convert to smites

Okay, so this is highly mechanically focused, and I'm probably going to reject it on that basis. I'll work with you and see if your character concept (story-driven) came first and you are just trying to create it mechanically, or if it were the other way around. Let's assume you really liked the character concept and that just seemed like the best way to manifest it in the rules.

From the concept you described, forget about warlock. Too much of a stretch and doesn't fit a good draconic deity. It also seems rather unnecessary for your concept.

Paladin I can do. So let's just start as a paladin--that's the class defined as a holy warrior, and you wanted to be a holy warrior. It's also a class that works well story-wise for dwarves. Now you are a dwarf who for some backstory reason really connected with Bahamut and his teachings, and decided to be a holy crusader in service of his causes. A bit eccentric, but sounds acceptable.

Now you are thinking of taking sorcerer levels (I'm assuming draconic). If the only reason is to get more spell slots for smiting, that is a no. If the primary reason is to get more spell slots for smiting, and you are thinking up ways to justify it in the story, it is still probably a no. If, on the other hand, you always saw this dwarf having a sorcerous arcane streak, I'll start discussing it with you. Why do you feel a need to add sorcerer to his story? I can see how you might look at it as providing a connection with your deity--but paladin or cleric really doesn't need any added connection. Providing an additional kind of connection is redundant and unnecessary.

But perhaps you want some arcane dragony magic--it just feels like he should have it. Okay, let's consider taking the Magic Initiate feat, and take draconic as one of your languages. Or perhaps you'd prefer the Ritual Caster feat, or perhaps both. That will allow you to add some arcane spice.

The character from start to finish is a front line fighter who fights in the name of his god.

Stick with paladin.

Just wondering, why wouldn't some of you allow this? Why would you just prefer the PC be a straight Paladin or Fighter or Cleric?

Yes, I would prefer that. I'd also find out whether your concept is primarily that of a holy warrior or that of a priest who fights. The former is a paladin and the latter is a cleric.

Also, at some point in our discussion, I would find out if you are actually okay with the changes and requirements I'm imposing on your character, or if you'd be more comfortable just playing an entirely different character in this campaign. If it is frustrating you because you honestly have a really exotic character concept that doesn't fit my setting, I'm not going to frustrate us both trying to fit it. I'm just going to say that it would fit better in another campaign, and we should look at a different character for this campaign. It could be a similar character, say you mostly just want a dwarf tank and are fine with a dwarf paladin of Moradin or cleric (War domain) of Clangeddin. Problem solved. Or perhaps you will save that idea for a different campaign, and play the half-elf rogue aristocrat you've been considering. Problem solved. I firmly believe that almost anyone has multiple character concepts that they can enjoy playing--some people just need a bit of help figuring out what those are.

I'll also note that I'm assuming my own campaign and my own setting (including my own take on a published setting), and that I come up with campaign ideas before I invite players. I tell you what my campaign is and you decide whether it works for you. If you say it works for you, then I approve or disapprove your character based on whether it works for my campaign. If I couldn't find enough people to play in a specific campaign then I wouldn't run that campaign right then. My players approve my campaign by signing on to play, and I approve their character or ask them create another one. Mutual approve, individual creative control. I would only come up with a campaign idea in concert with the players if we were going to be having a shared DMing campaign (which is cool).

Of course, if we are playing Lost Mine of Phandelver or some other disconnected one-shot adventure I'd probably just let you play whatever you want.
 

guachi

Hero
I want to combine rogue (assassin) and paliden (Vengence) to play a character like Assasin creed...

Almost did this with my Holy Slayer (from al-Qadim setting) concept. The actual 2e kit grants a bunch of particular powers that need to be either recreated with feats or a second class. They are one-handed weapon users, can use all one-handed weapons, and can specialize. The latter two are things a 2e rogue and 5e rogue can't do. The easiest way to get that is take at least one level of a martial class. And the ability to use more weapons and more armor expands the assassination (and disguise) opportunities.

I ended up deciding on a Ranger instead of a Paladin as the Assassin/Avenger was just too pitiless for my tastes. Which may explain why my character left Zakhara. Perhaps he just couldn't stomach the code.

It's a definite plus the combination makes my character more powerful in what I want to do with him. The min/max part is certainly appealing. But it's nice to know there is flexibility in achieving a character design if you want one. No other player in my Adventurers League has plans for a MC character, though.
 

guachi

Hero
I had a DM that paired the Cleric spell list down for me and told me what weapons my fighter couldn't use for various reasons and I've had guys say "I don't give a **** what you take Joe."

I've had something similar happen with same DM, the same players, in games running concurrently. That flexibility with the same core of players expanded everyone's gaming abilities, I think.
 

Tormyr

Hero
It also may not be that advantageous in the long run for most multi class combinations. Level dips can add cool stuff, but ASIs get pushed back and other cool stuff is sacrificed.

I have a rogue 7 / monk 1 at my table. By the time we complete our campaign at level 20, I imagine the player will have taken a few more monk levels for some of the ki powers and higher damage dice. However, that means that potentially Strok of Luck, Elusive, Thieve's Reflexes, Slippery Mind, Blindsense, and Use Magic Device will be skipped.

One character I think I would have fun playing would be a half-orc barbarian / monk named Banner. High strength, barbarian unarmored defense, and high damage with his fists. But the concept doesn't really work with the multiclass rules. There is too much missing from the barbarian to go high enough on monk to get nice damage dice. So it makes just as much sense to stay barbarian and take tavern brawler and a few other feats that have both an ability score increase and something good like +2hp /level or maximized healing with hit dice.

So lots of multiclassed characters may have some advantage in an area, but they are sacrificing / pushing back some cool stuff to get there.
 

I'm only responding to this because I've seen you type it this way several times in multiple posts...so I can safely assume it's not a typo anymore. The word is Paladin: p-a-l-A-d-I-n.
I'm a lousy speller... so sue me... oh wait didn't you feel attacked by something earlier in this thread... how do you think this makes someone feel?

did you know what I ment, could you figure it out? I bet you could, but because we disagree you have to go out of your way to shame a very simple mistake... way to be classy...


To the rest of your questions, there's nothing here that requires multiclassing.
I don't know how you can think so...

Be a bard [valor] and play your warlord guy. Can't? Why not?
I want the bard inspiration and the healing, and the battlemaster grant attacks and maneuvers... it is to get the feel of the 4e warlord, witch requires BOTH...


Need other class why?
well I could make up a class, call it warlord and give it some inspiration, some spells, some maneuvers... or I can just multi

Be an Eldritch Knight and play a Bladesinger guy. Can't? Why not? Need other class why?

because I want the feel of higher level spells, and spells not of evocation, I want more castery divination spells.


The only answers you have for those Why's is not "because I want a bladesinger/warlord." That's not an answer.
I want to have a fun character that the game supports and here it is, it wont break the game being too powerful or too weak and is well within the fluff...

It's "because without access to the full array of features of the -Wiz or -Ftr [respectively], or at least up to those levels that get me what I want, I don't get the powers I feel I need/want."
whats wrong with that... I say again:

I want to have a fun character that the game supports and here it is, it wont break the game being too powerful or too weak and is well within the fluff...

That's simply, in my eyes/experience/estimation and preferences, not a compelling enough reason to say "yes."

and in my experience "I don't like what you like" is not a compelling reason for me to veto it out of our shared game
 

pkt77242

Explorer
I'm only responding to this because I've seen you type it this way several times in multiple posts...so I can safely assume it's not a typo anymore. The word is Paladin: p-a-l-A-d-I-n.

To the rest of your questions, there's nothing here that requires multiclassing.

Be a bard [valor] and play your warlord guy. Can't? Why not? Need other class why? Be an Eldritch Knight and play a Bladesinger guy. Can't? Why not? Need other class why?

The only answers you have for those Why's is not "because I want a bladesinger/warlord." That's not an answer. It's "because without access to the full array of features of the -Wiz or -Ftr [respectively], or at least up to those levels that get me what I want, I don't get the powers I feel I need/want."

That's simply, in my eyes/experience/estimation and preferences, not a compelling enough reason to say "yes."

You are looking for a reason to say no though. You haven't given one reason why MC shouldn't be allowed besides that you don't like it and people "might" min/max. That is it, and while it is your right to not allow it in your game, you have hardly articulated a good reason why it shouldn't be allowed. The first rule of DMing is to make sure that people have fun and if that is the character that they want to build, why shouldn't they get to build their character. The other thing that DMs should try to do is find a way to so yes (not that you can always say yes to players but you should look for a reason to say yes) while you are starting from the point of No and convince me to say yes.
 

Remove ads

Top