D&D 5E What are the Roles now?

For example, the 1E thief was not a striker and the 5E rogue is not a striker. Neither one of these classes averaged more damage than their respective level fighter overall (the 1E one because 1E facing rules made it very difficult to get behind a foe, so back stabbing was infrequent and the 1E fighter had a better attack table; back stabbing was also considered a secondary function of the class). A DPR designed 5E fighter, on average, does more DPR than a DPR designed 5E rogue..

Not necessarily. Assuming equal ability modifiers and same weapons (long sword in this case), you could build an assassin striker to be the following. If you assume the assassin could get a surprise attack in a combat encounter the same number of times a fighter can action surge, the numbers would look like this:

Rogue 1: Dmg 1d8 longsword + 3 Ability Mod + 1d6 sneak attack = 11 average damage per round
Fighter 1: Dmg 1d8 longsword +3 ability Mod = 7.5 damage per round
Rogue 5 (assassin): Surprise round = (1d8 dmg +3d6 sneak attack)*2 (assassin) +4 ability mod = 34 points of damage. Every other round is 1d8 +4 +3d6 = 19 points per round
Figher 5: Action surge round: 4 attacks each at 1d8+4 dmg = 32.5 points. Every other round is 2d8+8 (2 attacks) = 17 points per round
Rogue 11 (assassin): Surprise round = (1d8 +6d6)*2 (crit hit) +5 = 56 points. Every other round is 1d8+5+6d6 = 30.5 points
Fighter 11: action surge: 6 attacks at 1d8+5 = 62 points of damage. Every other round is 3 attacks at 1d8+5 = 28.5 points.


*Edit* In my actual play experience, the assassin actually gets the drop on opponents (surprise) more often than once per short rest, which is how often the fighter above gets action surge. And with the rules for sneak attack work, an assassin worth his or her merit will be able to apply sneak attack damage to just about every attack. So if your criteria for a striker is to do more damage than other martial classes on a consistent and reliable basis, the 5e assassin rogue fits that role.
 
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Not necessarily. Assuming equal ability modifiers and same weapons (long sword in this case), you could build an assassin striker to be the following. If you assume the assassin could get a surprise attack in a combat encounter the same number of times a fighter can action surge, the numbers would look like this:

Rogue 1: Dmg 1d8 longsword + 3 Ability Mod + 1d6 sneak attack = 11 average damage per round
Fighter 1: Dmg 1d8 longsword +3 ability Mod = 7.5 damage per round
Rogue 5 (assassin): Surprise round = (1d8 dmg +3d6 sneak attack)*2 (assassin) +4 ability mod = 34 points of damage. Every other round is 1d8 +4 +3d6 = 19 points per round
Figher 5: Action surge round: 4 attacks each at 1d8+4 dmg = 32.5 points. Every other round is 2d8+8 (2 attacks) = 17 points per round
Rogue 11 (assassin): Surprise round = (1d8 +6d6)*2 (crit hit) +5 = 56 points. Every other round is 1d8+5+6d6 = 30.5 points
Fighter 11: action surge: 6 attacks at 1d8+5 = 62 points of damage. Every other round is 3 attacks at 1d8+5 = 28.5 points.


*Edit* In my actual play experience, the assassin actually gets the drop on opponents (surprise) more often than once per short rest, which is how often the fighter above gets action surge. And with the rules for sneak attack work, an assassin worth his or her merit will be able to apply sneak attack damage to just about every attack. So if your criteria for a striker is to do more damage than other martial classes on a consistent and reliable basis, the 5e assassin rogue fits that role.

Yeah but the fighter isn't optimized for damage using a longsword....
 

Yeah but the fighter isn't optimized for damage using a longsword....

And...how would he do that to overtake the assassin that the assassin couldn't also do? To which case, I'd probably reply, "If the fighter optimizes himself to DPR, then I'd consider him a striker too." Which just goes to show, unlike 4e, 5e has gone back to the idea that each class can have multiple roles depending on what you want to do with them. I.e., both the fighter and rogues can be strikers if you want them to, but aren't married to that role.
 

the roles Defender (fighter)/Striker (rogue/thief)/ Leader (Cleric)/COntroler (Wizard) may not have been well done (especially at first, but they did get better as the edition went on) but to say they were made up whole cloth is not right. We now have SKip Williams pre 4e talking about those same roles...

You may not like it, but Rogues have always been strikers, and Clerics have always been leaders... now I will admit I think fighters as defenders isn't as good of a match, but I can see how it was based on what cmae before...
 

And...how would he do that to overtake the assassin that the assassin couldn't also do? To which case, I'd probably reply, "If the fighter optimizes himself to DPR, then I'd consider him a striker too." Which just goes to show, unlike 4e, 5e has gone back to the idea that each class can have multiple roles depending on what you want to do with them. I.e., both the fighter and rogues can be strikers if you want them to, but aren't married to that role.

Greatsword for damage... I don't think the assassin get's greatsword proficiency... otherwise I agree with your general point above.
 

Not necessarily. Assuming equal ability modifiers and same weapons (long sword in this case), you could build an assassin striker to be the following. If you assume the assassin could get a surprise attack in a combat encounter the same number of times a fighter can action surge, the numbers would look like this:

Rogue 1: Dmg 1d8 longsword + 3 Ability Mod + 1d6 sneak attack = 11 average damage per round
Fighter 1: Dmg 1d8 longsword +3 ability Mod = 7.5 damage per round
Rogue 5 (assassin): Surprise round = (1d8 dmg +3d6 sneak attack)*2 (assassin) +4 ability mod = 34 points of damage. Every other round is 1d8 +4 +3d6 = 19 points per round
Figher 5: Action surge round: 4 attacks each at 1d8+4 dmg = 32.5 points. Every other round is 2d8+8 (2 attacks) = 17 points per round
Rogue 11 (assassin): Surprise round = (1d8 +6d6)*2 (crit hit) +5 = 56 points. Every other round is 1d8+5+6d6 = 30.5 points
Fighter 11: action surge: 6 attacks at 1d8+5 = 62 points of damage. Every other round is 3 attacks at 1d8+5 = 28.5 points.
You're not just putting a thumb on the scale for the rogue in this example, you're putting your whole hand. You're ignoring every single ability the fighter has except Action Surge and Extra Attack. Fighting style and expanded crit range both contribute substantially to the fighter's damage output. On top of that, you are pairing a high-damage rogue build (Assassin archetype) with a defensive fighter build (sword-and-board).

At level 5, assuming a 70% chance to hit, here's the real DPR for a rapier-wielding assassin rogue versus a greatsword champion fighter:

ROGUE, ROUND 1: 30.94 damage. (With advantage, 91% chance to crit for 2d8+6d6+4.)
ROGUE, LATER ROUNDS: 14.05 damage. (65% chance of a normal hit for 1d8+3d6+4, 5% chance of a crit for 2d8+6d6+4.)

FIGHTER, ROUND 1: 37.87 damage. (Four attacks, each with a 60% chance of a normal hit for 2d6+4 and 10% chance of a crit for 4d6+4. Re-roll all 1s and 2s on the dice.)
FIGHTER, LATER ROUNDS: 18.93 damage. (Two attacks, each with a 60% chance of a normal hit for 2d6+4 and 10% chance of a crit for 4d6+4. Re-roll all 1s and 2s on the dice.)

The rogue can just barely match the fighter by switching to dual shortswords, but in that case you're giving up the ability to use Cunning Action, since you need the bonus action for your off-hand attack. And of course all this is assuming no feats. Meanwhile, the fighter has a better AC than the rogue--even without a shield, full plate beats Dex-plus-studded-leather--and can take a lot more punishment.
 

You may not like it, but Rogues have always been strikers, and Clerics have always been leaders... now I will admit I think fighters as defenders isn't as good of a match, but I can see how it was based on what cmae before...

The 4e rogue can be relied on for high damage output, the 1e thief cannot. That is why the 1e thief is not a striker. In the 4e DMG monster role parlance you could properly call the 1e thief a lurker.

dude you took the words out of my mouth perfect agreed...

There would less disagreement if there was more consistency of argument.
 

You may not like it, but Rogues have always been strikers...
No, they haven't. A 3E rogue could just about keep pace with the fighter if the monster wasn't immune to sneak attack, which a lot of 'em were. But AD&D thieves* were never strikers. At all. Their damage output was pathetic. If they were lucky, they could get in one (1) backstab at the start of combat, but after that they were just plinking away with shortbows for normal damage. Did I mention that AD&D didn't have finesse weapons or Dex-based damage bonuses? The thief's job was to scout and find traps, not stab things.

Leader and defender are the two roles that have the most historical basis. It was widely acknowledged that you needed a sturdy front line to keep the wizard from getting smeared, and a healer to keep everybody alive. But even then, holding the line was not the fighter's only job--fighters also were expected to lay the smack down on bad guys. And the cleric was often a backup front line as well as a healer.

[SIZE=-2]*If you want to draw distinctions between "rogues" and "thieves," "rogue" in 2E was a superclass encompassing thieves and bards. And believe me, bards weren't any better than thieves at dishing out damage. The point still holds.[/SIZE]
 
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Not necessarily. Assuming equal ability modifiers and same weapons (long sword in this case), you could build an assassin striker to be the following. If you assume the assassin could get a surprise attack in a combat encounter the same number of times a fighter can action surge, the numbers would look like this:

Rogue 1: Dmg 1d8 longsword + 3 Ability Mod + 1d6 sneak attack = 11 average damage per round
Fighter 1: Dmg 1d8 longsword +3 ability Mod = 7.5 damage per round
Rogue 5 (assassin): Surprise round = (1d8 dmg +3d6 sneak attack)*2 (assassin) +4 ability mod = 34 points of damage. Every other round is 1d8 +4 +3d6 = 19 points per round
Figher 5: Action surge round: 4 attacks each at 1d8+4 dmg = 32.5 points. Every other round is 2d8+8 (2 attacks) = 17 points per round
Rogue 11 (assassin): Surprise round = (1d8 +6d6)*2 (crit hit) +5 = 56 points. Every other round is 1d8+5+6d6 = 30.5 points
Fighter 11: action surge: 6 attacks at 1d8+5 = 62 points of damage. Every other round is 3 attacks at 1d8+5 = 28.5 points.


*Edit* In my actual play experience, the assassin actually gets the drop on opponents (surprise) more often than once per short rest, which is how often the fighter above gets action surge. And with the rules for sneak attack work, an assassin worth his or her merit will be able to apply sneak attack damage to just about every attack. So if your criteria for a striker is to do more damage than other martial classes on a consistent and reliable basis, the 5e assassin rogue fits that role.

DPR designed 5E fighters do not use 1D8 weapons. They use two handed weapons or two weapon.

Plus, you gave the rogue the assassin subclass without giving the fighter a subclass. A (non-variant human, i.e. most fighters) battle master using the Great Weapon Master feat and Feinting Attack does at level 5, Nova round (i.e. action surge plus Feinting Attack): 1 attack at 2d6 (reroll 1s and 2s) +d8 +13 dmg plus 3 attacks at 2d6 (reroll 1s and 2s) +3 dmg = 59.8 points. Every other round is 4d6 (reroll 1s and 2s) +6 (2 attacks) = 20 points per round. The fighter also has 3 other feinting attacks that he can manage between short rests (which have advantage and do D8 more damage) which he can use for mini-nova rounds that do 1 attack at 2d6 (reroll 1s and 2s) +d8 +13 dmg plus 1 attack at 2d6 (reroll 1s and 2s) +3 dmg = 37.2 points. The battle masters mini-nova rounds average more damage than the assassin's nova surprise round.

And every critical and every foe dropped with the two handed weapon gives the fighter an extra attack. Plus the fighter controls when he novas, the assassin is limited to when he gets a surprise round, so the DM controls a lot of that (and nothing prevents the fighter from being able to stealth and get attacks in surprise rounds just like the assassin, just maybe not as often).

Also, fighters get more attacks per round starting at level 5. Hence, +1 and stronger bonus weapons add their bonuses to every attack, not just one per turn. As does magical buffs from spells and items. The party buffer would be better off buffing a 5th or higher level battle master more often than a 5th or higher level assassin.

Note: your rogue damage should also take into account a second weapon as well, especially since it helps with getting sneak attack damage in, even if the rogue misses with the first attack.

Put together any 5E rogue you want to. He will probably not average more damage than this fighter and I did not even try hard to optimize this guy. Just gave him one feat, one two handed weapon, and one maneuver.

Your damage assumptions are flawed. You should be using DPR instead of damage because DPR takes into account criticals and misses which matter for both the rogue and fighter. Many of the DPR leaders on the optimization boards are fighters. I have yet to see a Rogue DPR leader.


Can DPR rogues be close behind DPR fighters in overall damage? Sure. There might even be levels or certain combos where the rogue wins out. But, if a DPR rogue is a striker, a DPR fighter is a striker too.
 

Yep. I'll repeat what I just said:

, I'd probably reply, "If the fighter optimizes himself to DPR, then I'd consider him a striker too." .

My point is still completely valid. A rogue can specialize to do more damage than your typical fighter (or other martial class), which by definition, would make him a striker. Just because another class (fighter specializing in DPR) can do as well or even a little better doesn't take that away. It just means they both fit that definition.

Unless you happen to think that only one specific build can be a striker. And let's just say I'd find that a very odd position to take.
 

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