D&D 5E Light release schedule: More harm than good?

[Kramodlog]

Sailor Moon is contesting that point.

From what I remember it is a strawman.

I don't remember them claiming this. I do remember them claiming that they were responding to forum criticisms of game design up to that point and something about broader appeal. Could you link me to the statements behind this? I might be remembering wrong.

It is the same sells and feedback data you agree they have now about 5e...

Their release schedule at current is on par with several other RPG makers. Announcing only when within a few months of completion actually is a release schedule that some have made work for them.

When has D&D become this low expectation brand? Sure, maybe officially they aren't going for the top spot, but they do need to take marketshares away from Paizo.

The interesting part is, we don't know if this current lack of information is long-term. What I can say is that it's a good thing

The constant barrage of publicity we (Westerners) are subjected to everyday indicates that it is not the case. Manufacturers and distributers want to stay present and relevent. Adds, leaks and buzz exist for that reason. You want to stay in the conversation and positively so. No product release and no info doesn't look like good marketing. Something else risks capturing people's attention and money.

3E rushed out with a mad release schedule, and they had to produce so much errata to fix the mechanics problems of that edition that they had to completely redesign several mechanics and release 3.5E. 4E also rushed out with a hefty release schedule, and look at how that one turned out.

One was a success and is still the #1 RPG being sold (althought a bit tweeked), the other failed. Seems maybe other factors are at play than "rush".

They've had two editions in a row that were, in some form or another, a disaster.

Essentials wasn't a new edition. It was perfectly compatible with 4e. It was just a change in design philosophy.

The fact they are being cautious this early in the edition is a good sign.

Too cautious isn't too good either. It could also be other factors at work. A lack of resources (e.g. no money to pay publishers, not enough personal to playtest and edit two huge books, not enough sells of the other books so this is why the market is already saturated)

Now, if they continue to be this cautious in six months? Then, I'll agree you have a point. Until then, all I can say is that this is a vast improvement on how they handled 3E and 4E.

Actually, we do not really know what is going on, so making that judgement is really too early. All we can do is speculate. Cause we have no new D&D material to talk about.

See what I did there?

They didn't cancel it. They decided to make it a free download instead.

Please, do not insult my intelligence.

That's not deciding the market is oversaturated; if anything, that sounds like they're using it as a test run for 5E PDF products.

Yeah, that is one way to spin this.

And, if anything having it free will likely increase its distribution.

0$ multiplied by more = more profit!

So, they're still releasing the same amount of books. They just decided not to charge for one of them.

Mike Mearls: Soon, the new splatbook will be released and D&D will generate even more money! Mouahahahahaha! *ahem* Here you go, Rich. This is is your check for the work on the book.

Rich Baker: Thanks! I needed that for my heroin addiction. Speaking of addicts, when will you release the books to the unsuspecting masses? This book was such a well garded secret. Wink wink nudge nudge. Any chance you'll release PDFs of it too? I've heard kids have these weird things called phablets now. I'm pretty sure it can be used for other stuff than browsing ENworld (shameless plug).

Mearls: Brilliant! Let's just release a PDF. For free! This way we'll be releasing the same number of books, it will have cost us the same amount of money, but we'll be generating less revenue! Mouahahahaha!

Baker: That... What!? It doesn't make a lot of sense. I still want another contract with you guys to get more money. This heroin is hard to kick, man.

Mearls: You get a free PDF! And you get a free PDF! You get a free PDF! You definately get a free PDF! And you and you and you!

A year goes by. D&D is no longer printed because of lack of funds.

Baker: Dear god. Goldomark was right! Why didn't we listen to him! Why, oh why? Now I have to [redacted] Mona to pay for my heroin.

Mearls: And you get a free book! And you! And you!

Baker: Mearls, stop. Books do not exist anymore. Everything is implented in our brains now. This is why the old business model failed. It is amazing how things changed in one year.

Off voice: Please visite Kickstarter and crowdfund Ed Greenwood's Return to the Forgotten Realms. Yes, he got the rights back and you want some of that Realms action! Cause SCOTUS made sure no other settings could be published thanks to that movie rights fiasco.

Baker: Damn these brain adds. There are too many of them on BrainENworld.

Morrus: Look mate, if you do not like my Brainsite, you can leave. This is a joyous place. BrainENworld is love, BrainENworld is life.

Baker: Can you spare a Dogecoin, man? I'll design anything for some Dogecoins. Even F.A.T.A.L.!

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

From what I remember it is a strawman.

It's not a strawman if it's something argued early on. This is stuff Sailor Moon argued on page 2 of this thread.

It is the same sells and feedback data you agree they have now about 5e...

Except they didn't do the same set of surveys prior to 4E that they did for 5E, considering 4E never had an open playtest. So, no, it's not the same set of data.

When has D&D become this low expectation brand? Sure, maybe officially they aren't going for the top spot, but they do need to take marketshares away from Paizo.

Around the time they had two editions in a row turn out to be disasters, forcing them to abandon one edition partway through and put out no new content for months while scrambling to plan out a new edition.

Also, WotC isn't just competing with Paizo; they're also competing with Savage Worlds, Numenera, Shadowrun, nWoD, 13th Age, FATE, and a few others.

The constant barrage of publicity we (Westerners) are subjected to everyday indicates that it is not the case. Manufacturers and distributers want to stay present and relevent. Adds, leaks and buzz exist for that reason. You want to stay in the conversation and positively so. No product release and no info doesn't look like good marketing. Something else risks capturing people's attention and money.

And yet, it's a market strategy that has worked repeatedly for video game developers like Bethesda and Blizzard, several RPG companies (including Catalyst, the makers of Shadowrun), and even portions of the software industry. Given all of those are operating in a Western market and doing quite well with the tactic, it seems that the conventional wisdom on "must market as much as possible" isn't actually true.

One was a success and is still the #1 RPG being sold (althought a bit tweeked), the other failed. Seems maybe other factors are at play than "rush".

Technically, neither one was a success; remember, they abandoned 3E for 3.5 partway through its development cycle, just like they would later abandon 4E. The only difference is, they didn't replace 4E with a patched version. That is the difference between the two, and why one is considered a worse failure than the other.

After all, as you pointed out, 4E was made by pros. And so was 3E, as I'll point out. In fact, one of those pros has his own game system now. That did not stop 3E from having massive problems of its own and WotC being forced to abandon it for 3.5.

Essentials wasn't a new edition. It was perfectly compatible with 4e. It was just a change in design philosophy.

Essentials isn't what I was talking about. I was talking about 3E and 4E.

Too cautious isn't too good either. It could also be other factors at work. A lack of resources (e.g. no money to pay publishers, not enough personal to playtest and edit two huge books, not enough sells of the other books so this is why the market is already saturated)

It's been a little over a month since the DMG was released. Their first major adventure path to be released with the full ruleset out comes in April. I don't know about you, but I think that's a reasonable amount of time to see how things are actually developing and how sales are going. And if it turns out sales are higher than expected, they can adjust their product schedule accordingly.

But like I said... if, in six months they're still going slow, I'm going to agree they're being too cautious. Caution like this early on is very warranted, given their history with this game. Continued caution beyond that is a sign things are in trouble.

Actually, we do not really know what is going on, so making that judgement is really too early. All we can do is speculate. Cause we have no new D&D material to talk about.

See what I did there?

You mean, no new DnD material like the upcoming elemental evils campaign that is going to begin releasing in March, with the books that cost money coming out in April?

Please, do not insult my intelligence.

I keep waiting for people to see the obvious and realize what WotC is doing with Elemental Evils and which company very famous for doing the same exact thing they are ripping off. I mean, WotC isn't even trying to hide that they're doing it. I just haven't stated it before now because the tone always comes across wrong.

Any insults to your intelligence are not being delivered from my end.

Yeah, that is one way to spin this.

Not really. It makes sense when you know who's business strategy they are using.

0$ multiplied by more = more profit!

Yeah, it always has confused me as to why Paizo does that, yet complains on their forums that they don't make enough money from PDF sales to justify a PDF subscription model. If they at least charged a little for the most-downloaded items from their APs, they'd probably make up that difference.

Mike Mearls: Soon, the new splatbook will be released and D&D will generate even more money! Mouahahahahaha! *ahem* Here you go, Rich. This is is your check for the work on the book.

Rich Baker: Thanks! I needed that for my heroin addiction. Speaking of addicts, when will you release the books to the unsuspecting masses? This book was such a well garded secret. Wink wink nudge nudge. Any chance you'll release PDFs of it too? I've heard kids have these weird things called phablets now. I'm pretty sure it can be used for other stuff than browsing ENworld (shameless plug).

Mearls: Brilliant! Let's just release a PDF. For free! This way we'll be releasing the same number of books, it will have cost us the same amount of money, but we'll be generating less revenue! Mouahahahaha!

Baker: That... What!? It doesn't make a lot of sense. I still want another contract with you guys to get more money. This heroin is hard to kick, man.

Mearls: You get a free PDF! And you get a free PDF! You get a free PDF! You definately get a free PDF! And you and you and you!

A year goes by. D&D is no longer printed because of lack of funds.

Baker: Dear god. Goldomark was right! Why didn't we listen to him! Why, oh why? Now I have to [redacted] Mona to pay for my heroin.

Mearls: And you get a free book! And you! And you!

Baker: Mearls, stop. Books do not exist anymore. Everything is implented in our brains now. This is why the old business model failed. It is amazing how things changed in one year.

Off voice: Please visite Kickstarter and crowdfund Ed Greenwood's Return to the Forgotten Realms. Yes, he got the rights back and you want some of that Realms action! Cause SCOTUS made sure no other settings could be published thanks to that movie rights fiasco.

Baker: Damn these brain adds. There are too many of them on BrainENworld.

Morrus: Look mate, if you do not like my Brainsite, you can leave. This is a joyous place. BrainENworld is love, BrainENworld is life.

Baker: Can you spare a Dogecoin, man? I'll design anything for some Dogecoins. Even F.A.T.A.L.!

So you don't approve of Paizo's strategy for handling adventure paths?

Seriously, releasing the player's guide as a free PDF but charging for the the DM-run adventure portions is classic Paizo. And yet, that's exactly what WotC is doing with Elemental Evil.

I would't be surprised if that printer run was not related to free guides to give out as part of their Adventures League. In which case, stores would get the preview because stores would need to know that this isn't a product to charge for and what to look for when advertising it to their DnD players who partake in Adventures League.

After all, if you're going to steal someone's business plan, you might as well try to improve on it as well so you do better than they are.

 

[Staffan]

Seriously, releasing the player's guide as a free PDF but charging for the the DM-run adventure portions is classic Paizo. And yet, that's exactly what WotC is doing with Elemental Evil.

Paizo's Player's Guides to various APs are a far cry from what it seems Wizards will be doing with the Princes of the Apocalypse PG. POTAPG is supposed to have new races (genasi, possibly more) as well as various new player options. A Paizo PG is more of a teaser for the AP, and telling you what options will be somewhat useful. Things like "If you're a ranger or other class with favored enemies, consider Dragons, Native Outsiders, Goblins, and Magical Beasts, because you'll be fighting those a lot" or "If you're a divine spellcaster, Torag, Gozreh, and Desna makes particularly useful patrons in this AP."

Most AP PGs don't have much in the way of actual crunch other than campaign traits, which are essentially ways of bribing PCs into making their characters have connections to the adventure. Some do present additional mechanics, and when doing so those mechanics are usually the focus of some part of the AP - sailing rules for the pirate AP, or dominion rules for Kingmaker.

 

[Sailor Moon]

How is the current model not a healthy release schedule? I don't see the problem myself.

Well HoTdq, Rise of Tiamat, and Elemental Evil are not something I will use so thats three that will do me no good.

Adventures shouldn't count anyway. You can't bloat a game with adventures.

 

[Sailor Moon]

I'm not too concerned at the release schedule at the moment. The DMG just came out, for cryin' out loud. Eventually I would like to see 1-2 expansion books per year, with things of interest for both DMs and players. Sort of like 4e's various Heroes of X books, although a central theme to each wouldn't strictly be necessary.

Also, Sailor Moon/Foreverslayer, are you still primarily looking for WotC to produce setting-related books and not splatbooks? Your earlier posts in this thread indicate that was not the case.

Who is ForeverSlayer?

 

[Kaychsea]

Well HoTdq, Rise of Tiamat, and Elemental Evil are not something I will use so thats three that will do me no good.

Adventures shouldn't count anyway. You can't bloat a game with adventures.

So you aren't complaining about the lack of output, you are complaining about lack of output you want?

 

[Sailor Moon]

So you aren't complaining about the lack of output, you are complaining about lack of output you want?

Adventures aren't splat. People are preaching about bloat and yet the only books that actually have rules are the PHB and DMG. You can flood the market with adventures all you want because they will most likely not contain any crunch.

Remove those adventures from the equation for a moment and look what we are left with.

 

[Kaychsea]

Remove those adventures from the equation for a moment and look what we are left with.

That still sounds like "Ignore what I don't like and what is left?"
The whole point of the strategy for WotC in producing 5e has been quite explicit. The core books are to be the bulk of it. They want to avoid splat-bloat so I doubt we'll see a whole lot of material of that kind.
What we don't know that will have a fairly hefty impact on what comes out include:
The material included in APs such as the Elemental Evil arc;
Material included in setting descriptions;
The mechanisms that will allow third party books, whether that be a new OGL or something else.

So far we've had the core rules, the starter set and the Tiamat arc. So the rules and two adventures. The staggered release of the core books changes things but how soon after the release of 3e did the splats start coming? Do we start counting from August or December? Or July, when the Basic rules went up?

Ultimately the question comes down to what do people want to see being produced. The team is smaller so will be pumping out less stuff anyway and they still seem to be trying to figure out what they can charge for and what is better put up on the site free of charge. How the third party thing pans out is more interesting, but I can't see much coming out that isn't part of a campaign setting or AP.

Will it hurt the "Brand". Maybe, but there is a fair head of enthusiasm so far, people are doing their own thing and seem to be enjoying it. Is it possible that it's too soon for people to be bored yet? That there are still things in the core that people haven't got round to trying?

 

[Sailor Moon]

That still sounds like "Ignore what I don't like and what is left?"
The whole point of the strategy for WotC in producing 5e has been quite explicit. The core books are to be the bulk of it. They want to avoid splat-bloat so I doubt we'll see a whole lot of material of that kind.

And yet once again.

You don't have to turn the tap to the point of a trickle in order to stay away from bloat.

Campaign settings books only become splat when they are full of rules options, unless they contained things like backgrounds.

You could put out a FR Campaign Guide for DMs and a Player's guide for you know who. You can also come out with books about the different areas of the Realms that go into a little more detail. These at most would contain some magic items, regional spells, and regional backgrounds.

Same goes for Greyhawk or Eberron, or Dark Sun etc...

There is no bloat there and yet you could couple it with adventures and still have a healthy, and full, release schedule without bloat. Mix in a few sourcebooks for classes and you are set for the next few years without the bloat.

It's not hard to be honest.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I'm kind of torn about this situation. I love new books. I think that constant change is what keeps the game feeling "new" even years after the game came out.

On the other hand, I was kind of sick of the pure amount of new stuff entering my game constantly.

Though, I think all products add to bloat. I think WOTC is definitely looking at the experience that new players have when trying to get into the game. I can imagine some parents walking into a gaming store around Christmas 2017 and saying "My kid wants to play D&D, what do I need to buy?" and to have some well meaning game store owner say something like "Well, they'll want to get the 3 Core books so that they have monsters to run, information on how to run and play the game. Then, there are a bunch of options that you could also get to help them. For instance, there are campaign settings for Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Greyhawk, Spelljammer, and Ravenloft. Each of them has information on one of the worlds they could run their game in. Also, there are adventures for sale if he doesn't want to come out with his own. There are 7 adventures, with a total of 10 books if you wanted them all. In addition to that, there are splatbooks for each of the classes with more information about them if they want to get more detailed and have more options. Also, we have minis available."

And watch as the parents in question go "Umm, we don't know what books he might want or which worlds he'll want to play in. What does it cost to get it ALL so that we can be sure he has everything?" and the store owner says "$2000".

I think they are working heavily to prevent that situation. I'm guessing that the schedule they want to see is that when those parents walk into the store at Christmas 2017, that they see the core 3 books, the last 4 adventures that have been printed and possibly one or two campaign settings.

I think this is pretty smart. I think I'd rather see ALL the additional crunch be online for free or for a subscription fee. This allows people who really want it to go and get it without confusing new players. It also allows DMs to write it off as not mandatory since it's only online...in the same way that most DMs felt the things published in Dragon Magazine were less "official" than stuff in the Fighter's Handbook.

That really seems to be what they've decided recently. If I was to hazard a guess as to why the Adventurer's Handbook vanished is that they were making it as the first splat book, they had already commissioned another company to produce it for them. Then, someone decided to have a real conversation about how they wanted splatbooks to work in 5e. Maybe they shouldn't do it the same way they've done it in previous editions. What if they released ZERO splat books and instead provided game support online? Likely everyone else agreed and they cancelled all plans for the book and figured they'd publish the stuff that was already made for the book online for free and figure out a proper distribution system for future content after that.