D&D 5E What are the Roles now?

I mean the transformation of a character/player combo from someone who doesn't know their role to someone who does.
I don't really see how this transformation experience can occur after the first PC or campaign.

Gygax seems to more-or-less concede that it typically won't, when he incorporates guidelines in his DMG for experienced players starting at levels greater than 1st.

Have I misunderstood you?
 

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If my fighter is going dungeon delving, just to pick a common example, I would be inclined to go with Breastplate (AC 14+Dex mod), both for the lightness and no disadvantage to stealth.

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if you were a Fighter in AD&D, you had your choice of armors -- study but light armors for dungeon and city adventures, heavy armor for when the crap was about to go down.
I can see this in principle but have never encountered it in practice.

At 1st level in Moldvay Basic, if my fighter can afford plate armour (60 gp from memory, so most likely) it is virtually suicide not to use it: dropping the hit chance from 6 in 20 to 3 in 20 (or thereabouts) is effectively doubling my life expectancy. At higher levels, where I have the hit points to open up a wider range of choices, I probably have magical plate mail, which (depending on which bit of DMG text you read - the rules as stated in the Armour section near the start are different from the rules stated in the Magic Item section near the end) either encumbers at one step lower (so comparably to studded leather) or not at all.

(I'm following your lead in somewhat mixing my editions. I can't remember what B/X says about the encumbrance of magic armour.)

I'm thinking of the Moldvay Basic example of combat, where the first thing the fighters (dwarf and elf) do is engage the enemy with ranged attacks.

For whatever reason, people said, "Forget all that," and tended to just specialize in one weapon
At low levels the fighter in my 4e game - who also is proficient, like the AD&D fighter, in longbows - would often open up with ranged attacks. At 28th level he is unlikely to hit with a longbow on much less than 20 (having not pumped DEX very much, and having only a +1 longbow to work with - but having not pumped solely CON either - off-STR stat bonuses have been allocated across DEX, CON and WIS), but from time-to-time he will make ranged attacks with his Mordenkrad that is enchanted as a heavy thrown weapon.

Specialisation has been mechanically driven - weapon specialisation in UA, retained in 2nd ed AD&D, was chosen as the mechanic to drive fighter attack rates and attack and damage bonuses. Skill-based games like RQ and RM similarly make choice of weapon a far greater determinant of combat ability than general martial expertise.

Magic weapons also factor into this - if I have a +4 two-handed sword and an ordinary spear, the +4 to hit and 1d10+4 damage completely crowd out the longer reach with 1d6 damage. (Even with STR bonuses that apply to both attacks, the spear is still crowded out.)

Another factor is that the mechanics of D&D combat do not generate much incentive to favour (say) reach over weight. In AD&D reach gives auto-initiative in some closing/charging situations, but that is a relatively small benefit if combat is going to last more than one round - which it probably will at mid-levels and above, especially if my spear only does 1d6 damage.

The fighter in my 4e game does swap between weapons - his polearm and mordenkraad - depending on whether he wants reach/control or sheer damage. This has been driven in no small part by Dwarven Weapon Expertise (or whatever the feat is called) which means that his specialisation bonus straddles both weapon types. Another relevant factor has been that our game has tended to emphasise GM rather than player control over magic item placement - I have followed wish lists embellished by my own imagination and inclination, and magic item crafting has been of very secondary importance. This meant that I was able to place magic items of both sorts, thereby eliminating the need for the player to agonise of whether or not to "waste" resources on powering up a second weapon.

I like all-around, multi-role characters.
Multi-role characters are fairly easy to build in 4e, though of course to some extent it depends where I draw the role boundaries (eg is defender/controller multi-role, or is a defender really just a melee controller?).

All-around is a different thing. The closest we have in my 4e game is the paladin, who can fight in melee, has a small complement of ranged spell (prayer) attacks, can heal, and has top-notch social skills. The sorcerer is also pretty versatile - good mobility and combat (including at-will short-range flight), good stealth, reasonable social but a little shaky once the damage starts raining down.

But I'm still not seeing how a fighter built using the 5e Basic PDF can deliver AoE attacks or do serious healing. Which is not a criticism of 5e - maybe fighters who can do AoE attacks are broken in that system? But I don't think 4e is as rigid, nor 5e as versatile, as at least some in this thread are claiming.

I'm not entirely sure where you fall. But presumably your 3rd level fighter with the DEX to take advantage of that breastplate isn't going to be as robust in melee as the 3rd level fighter whose player dumped DEX for STR and CON and is wearing the best heavy armour s/he can afford. That's a bit of role differentiation right there - in 4e terms we might be comparing a STR/DEX melee ranger to a PHB fighter. Admittedly your 5e PC can do something the 4e ranger can't, namely, put on a suit of plate, but you'll still be less effective as a bruiser than the character who was built to bruise from the start.
 
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I mean a character who is primarily focused on defense, or at least acts like it often enough that it can be seen as a primary focus.
I think there are very few PC builds in 4e that would fit this description - perhaps some leader builds.

Defenders in 4e aren't primarily focused on defence (maybe some swordmage builds - shielding in particular - are an exception? I don't have a lot of familiarity with swordmages). Fighters, paladins and battleminds are all focused on attack. Those attacks then inflict conditions, or interact with conditions inflicted by other means (eg a paladin's Divine Challenge) that mean that the victim of the attack will most likely not pose a threat to other PCs.

Then you're misunderstanding how 5E works on checks.
I don't think so.

For reasons I don't understand, you suggested (in post 393 upthread) that a character who "mechanically has no ability to restore hit points, remove debilitating conditions like blindness/deafness, etc" sounds like a character with Medicine proficiency.

Why don't I understand? Because a character with proficiency in Medicine in fact does have a better than typical chance of stabilising a dying character. Hence s/he is not an instance of what I described, namely, a character who has no particular ability to restore hit points or remove debilitating conditions. (And for the sake of clarity, it is a mechanical ability, deriving from the proficiency mechanics.)

The player asks if they can do something, and you see if they have a skill that might be related; if they don't have it, you call for a simple ability check. If you're reading the write-up as being literally all a skill can do, then your players are going to quickly be frustrated.
This is completely orthogonal, for two reasons.

First, it's no different from 4e. A character in 4e with (for instance) 1x/day Inspiring Word can do more than just restore hit points (eg s/he can use the ability in a skill challenge to add +2 to a skill check, if speaking Inspiring Words is relevant within the context of the fiction).

Second, pointing out that a character with Medicine proficiency can do more things than just stabilise a dying character is simply emphasising the capacity of that character to do things to remove debilitating conditions, which makes that character even less of an instance of what I described. Perhaps you missed the negation in my description?

This also raises other issues, though. I was talking about a character described or conceived of by his/her player as a miracle working healer. Does the Medicine skill in 5e encompass miracles? Can the player of a character who is not a cleric or druid declare as an action "I pray for a miracle" and then be entitled to have the GM set a DC? Or does the 5e skill system only encompass "mundane" abilities, like binding wounds and setting fractures?

My general impression is the latter, but if people are playing otherwise then I would be very interested to hear about it, because that would be something new for traditional D&D.
 

I don't really see how this transformation experience can occur after the first PC or campaign.

Gygax seems to more-or-less concede that it typically won't, when he incorporates guidelines in his DMG for experienced players starting at levels greater than 1st.

Have I misunderstood you?

I doubt you've misunderstood? It isn't a complex point--I don't like that the designers removed a leg out of the journey that players take with their characters.

OTOH if you doubt it can happen with the same player time and time again, then we certainly don't see eye to eye.

I don't see what starting at levels other than one has to do with it--starting at fifth level in first edition doesn't change a character's role, or the presentation thereof. (Does it?)
 

[MENTION=6680772]Iosue[/MENTION] - I have to admit that in thirty plus years of gaming I have never once seen a character start switching armors. Why on earth would you take off plate in 1e? It's not like your fighter could sneak anyway. Same with 3e. Breastplate is almost as bad for stealth stuff as plate. And since all the stealth skills in 3e are cross class, who tries to make a stealthy fighter?

Bows are great but by and large most encounters start within one or maybe two rounds of movement. I've almost never seen encounters start at the long end of long range for a bow.
 

But I'm still not seeing how a fighter built using the 5e Basic PDF can deliver AoE attacks or do serious healing. Which is not a criticism of 5e - maybe fighters who can do AoE attacks are broken in that system? But I don't think 4e is as rigid, nor 5e as versatile, as at least some in this thread are claiming.

To answer, AoE is covered with Additional Fighter Attacks and Action Surge. As for serious Healing (for others), the Basic game discusses Multiclassing which is indeed included in the PHB.
 

But I'm still not seeing how a fighter built using the 5e Basic PDF can deliver AoE attacks or do serious healing. Which is not a criticism of 5e - maybe fighters who can do AoE attacks are broken in that system? But I don't think 4e is as rigid, nor 5e as versatile, as at least some in this thread are claiming.

Given the fact that we've been talking about the 4e core books and it is common knowledge that the 5e basic PDF was designed to give the simplest and easiest implementation of the classes it contained why... are you using the 5e fighter in the basic PDF would be my main question? But pushing that to the side...

You realize in 5e as long as you have movement left you can continuously move even after you've attacked... so a 5th level basic PDF Fighter can move into position to attack 2 enemies, finish out his movement next to a different enemy and use action surge on that enemy (or attack one of the original enemies again) That's 3 attacks in one round on 3 different foes, sounds like AoE attack to me. Now in the actual players handbook there is the Battlemaster who can take sweeping attack on top of the 3 attacks here to have the possibility of catching 4 foes in one round at 5th level... and the Eldritch Knight has the option of taking AoE spells or attacking as was demonstrated with the basic fighter above. Also note these extra attacks (and superiority dice) continue to increase as the Fighter levels up. Now granted it's not a select-able one-click and hit power, it takes some tactical thinking and effort to pull off but I actually prefer it that way and it is very much possible.

EDIT: As too healing [MENTION=6688277]Sadras[/MENTION] covered multi-classing, but there is also the option of feats if they are used from the PHB... such as Inspiring Leader if you want to go a non-magical route or Magic Intitate if you want to go the magical route.
 
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You realize in 5e as long as you have movement left you can continuously move even after you've attacked... so a 5th level basic PDF Fighter can move into position to attack 2 enemies, finish out his movement next to a different enemy and use action surge on that enemy (or attack one of the original enemies again) That's 3 attacks in one round on 3 different foes, sounds like AoE attack to me. Now in the actual players handbook there is the Battlemaster who can take sweeping attack on top of the 3 attacks here to have the possibility of catching 4 foes in one round at 5th level... and the Eldritch Knight has the option of taking AoE spells or attacking as was demonstrated with the basic fighter above. Also note these extra attacks (and superiority dice) continue to increase as the Fighter levels up. Now granted it's not a select-able one-click and hit power, it takes some tactical thinking and effort to pull off but I actually prefer it that way and it is very much possible.

I believe utilising Action Surge would provide 4 attacks for that round for the 5th Level Fighter (it doubles your natural attacks, as I have understood).

Furthermore @pemerton there is the option of Cleave in the DMG which allows damage excess damage (after you have dropped a melee foe) to be inflicted on another enemy unit within reach.
 

I believe utilising Action Surge would provide 4 attacks for that round for the 5th Level Fighter (it doubles your natural attacks, as I have understood).

Yep you're right, the Battlemaster in my campaign is 4th level so I've only seen it used to gain one additional attack so far... thanks for the heads up.
 

To answer, AoE is covered with Additional Fighter Attacks and Action Surge. As for serious Healing (for others), the Basic game discusses Multiclassing which is indeed included in the PHB.
If we're talking about multi-classing, then what is the contrast with 4e again? Which also has mutli-classing and hybrid mechanics.

If we're talking action surge and extra attacks as AoE, then the comparison to a wizard is fairly lame in my view.

It also doesn't measure up to 4e, where a 1st level fighter can make 2 attacks once per encounter (Passing Attack) and can have a 1x/encounter AoE (all adjacent visible targets) at 3rd level.
 

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