D&D 5E What are the Roles now?

[GMforPowergamers]

Why can't my rogue learn sweeping strike?

yes... well I don't know about sweeping strike...but I really want to use manuvers subclass+rogue to make a swashbuckler...

 

[pemerton]

The Roles of Characters in D&D are:

- The guy who handles the challenges of adventure and combat with their weapons. For ease of common understanding, let's call it a Fighter.
- The guy who handles the challenges of adventure and combat with magic/sorcery. For ease of common understanding, let's call it a Magic-User.

For brevity I've stopped here.

At this level of abstraction we know almost nothing about how the game, or these characters, play.

At this level of abstraction we could be playing a game like Conan or King Arthur, in which warriors dominate the action and magic-users are oracles and enchanters who (if antagonists) can expect to end up skewered on the end of a warrior's sword.

Or we could be playing a game like traditonal D&D, in which if you want to take down a squad of orcs you're better off with a magic-user casting Sleep or Fireball than with a fighter, because of the way the action economy and AoE options are allocated between the classes.

Or we could be playing Ars Magica, in which grogs are not feasible player characters, but are more a shared table resource.

From your description, we also can't tell who will heal the injured: the fighter who is experienced in field medicion, the magic-user who conjures miracles, or (as is in fact the case in D&D) some other class altogether.

The contrast is in the design philosophy of the 4e game which is different to the design philosophy of 5e

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In 4e Wizards were Controllers, says so in my 4e PHB. In 5e the same cannot be said.

<snip>

In 4e, the designer made that choice for you with the controller-designed powers they made you select from.

<snip>

In 4e, Roles define a character's Abilities. In 5e Abilities define a character's Role in the Party.

The alternation of phrases doesn't mark any substantial difference.

The abilities of a 4e PC define that character's role in the party. (Just as you say for 5e.)

Those abilities are chosen from a menu that the designers authored, having a suite of functions in mind. The abilities in 5e were also authored by the designers, also having a suite of functions in mind.

The interesting question is: what suite of functions did the designers have in mind? Given that the wizard spells in 5e overlap very heavily with the wizard spells in 4e - AoE damage, AoE debuff/condition-imposition (eg web, sleep, colour spray, etc) - I don't see the radical contrast.

With fighters the contrast is more marked, because a 5e fighter can be built as an archer whereas a 4e fighter cannot be, at least until you get to the Slayer. (The archer warlord came a bit earlier.)

I'm sure somewhere down the line someone will create a subclass of fighter that does indeed heal, which is easy enough to incorporate right now. This reflects 5e's versatility as a system which you've suggested, you doubt.

I'm not talking about the flexibility of the system. There is a 4e fighter who can heal, too - it's called the Warlord.

I'm talking about the versatility of a particular character, who - it has been said upthread - can adopt any role. I don't think a great weapon fighter in 5e can easily adopt the role of healer or AoE damage-dealer or condition-inflicter.

Goalpost shift much? Do you want to:
(a) Compare a wizard to a fighter with regards to AoE; or
(b) Do you want to reflect on the AoE a fighter has in 5e?

The former. Because the claim was made upthread that any PC in 5e can adopt any role, and this is a difference from 4e.

I don't see it. I see that some 5e fighters incline towards striking rather than defending. I can see that some 5e fighters can be built who straddle the two (as [MENTION=6680772]Iosue[/MENTION] has suggested upthread), although I think that this is reasonably feasible in 4e also (subject to limitations on effective bow attacks, especially once you get out of heroic tier).

But I don't see a 5e fighter who can heal very significantly, nor who can deliver significant amounts of AoE damage.

You want to start discussing powers on a granular level between two different games? Really, is this where you want to take it?

Claims have been made, upthread, that 4e PC buildng, and 4e PCs, are inflexible in a way that is not true for 5e; that 5e PCs can adopt any role depending on the mood of the player and the ingame situation.

I don't think that these claims are true. There are interesting points of difference between 5e and 4e, but I don't think this is one of them.

Some people think it is a huge design breakthrough, for instance, to write a game in which instead of a fighter class and a warlord class you have a single class with two distinct sub-classes. I think this is a mere difference of labels. It doesn't actually open up the range or variety of PCs that can be built, nor the versatility of any given PC in play.
[MENTION=6680772]Iosue[/MENTION] gave an example of versatility in build upthread, which is hard to match in 4e: the fighter whose physical stats are split between STR, CON and DEX and who can therefore alternate between lighter armour and bow/scout and heavier armour and melee/defence. (The closest to this build in 5e would be a type of ranger build, I think, perhaps hybrid with fighter.)

But that is not a character who can fulfill any role. For instance, it still has no signficant healing or AoE. (And I don't read [MENTION=6680772]Iosue[/MENTION] as having asserted otherwise.)

 

[pemerton]

Take a look at the two superheroes who I did cite as being defensive. Superman has no particular ability to really defend; his primary defense is that he's effectively indestructible without one certain material involved. And... that's it. The rest of his powers are focused on offense and combat. Yet he uses that and his offensive powers defensively. Spiderman is the same way; almost nothing defensive, yet he still acts as a defensive character.

OK, but I'm not sure what light this is shedding on the nature of "defender" characters in 4e, and how superhero strong guys might compare to them.

You're not understanding it because you're missing the key aspect of it: The character only has that capacity if the DM says they can use the skill that way. What Medicine actually does isn't decided by game mechanics

<snip>

The Medicine skill in 5E encompasses whatever the DM says it encompasses.

<snip>

The capacity of Medicine to heal wounds or restore injuries is not a mechanical capacity in that there's no actual mechanics that say what a Medicine skill fully encompasses.

I've failed to follow you.

First, the Medicine skill does have a defined mechanical function, on p 62 of the Basic PDF:

A Wisdom (Medicine) check lets you try to stabilize a dying companion or diagnose an illness.​

This is elaborated on p 76, which says:

You can use your action to administer first aid to an unconscious creature and attempt to stabilize it, which requires a successful DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check.​

As in 4e, these do not exhaust what can be done with the Medicine skill. But they set a minimum for what, according to the rulebooks, the skill can be used to do.

Second, I don't understand why, when I refer to a character who is described/conceived by his/her player as a miracle working healer but who lacks any corresponding mechanical abilities, that you would nominate as an instance a character who does have such abilities, namely, the Medicine skill.

Third, you haven't really explained what you think the link between WIS checks (whether or not buffed by the Medicine proficiency) encompass miracles.

 

[yakuba]

I think the game sends conflicting signals here. I think practically every significant fighter or cleric NPC in Keep on the Borderlands has +1 Plate:

* The F3 Bailiff in room 6 of the Keep;

* The evil C3 in room 7b;

* The curate in room 17;

* The F3 Captain of the Guard in room 18;

* The 3rd level elf in room 26;

* The Castellan in room 27;

* And the evil priest in room 59 of the caves.​

This implies that magical plate mail is very common, and also that every character who can wear it and is of 3rd level or greater should expect to have some.

IIRC, the magic items in the playtest Keep on the Borderlands were unchanged from the original, so I wouldn't use that as an example of typical magic item availability.

 

[Hussar]

I'd also point out that there are at least three reasons why Imaro's example of a fighter doing AoE attacks doesn't really work.

1. In order for the fighter to attack 4 different targets they'd either have to all be within 5 feet of the fighter or he is one shotting each one. Otherwise, he's taking an opportunity attack from each opponent other than the last, as he bounces around the battlefield. AoE attacks typically don't open you up to multiple opportunity attacks unless the caster is really desperate.

2. If the fighter is not one shotting each opponent, he can choose to double up attacks and keep attacking the same target in order to put it down. AoE effects cannot do this. You can't choose to fireball three ogres and then triple the damage to one ogre. It doesn't work that way. IOW, not an AoE attack.

3. The fighter can do this once per short rest. Meaning, at best, he can do this once per encounter, although, in play it's likely once per two or three encounters. I'd say that's a pretty poor controller that can only make one single AoE attack every two or three encounters. Heck, one that could only do it once every two or three ROUNDS isn't a very good controller.

So, no, fighters aren't controllers in 5e. They can't do it.

 

[dd.stevenson]

I mean, MMOs covers things as varied as Secret World, World of Tanks, and, yes, World of Warcraft. And the idea that they've got things in common other than being MMOs is laughable.

I don't think that MMOs are all similar to each other.

That's a really bizarre opinion for anyone to hold--why are you attributing it to me?

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

OK, but I'm not sure what light this is shedding on the nature of "defender" characters in 4e, and how superhero strong guys might compare to them.

No light at all on the roles; I think we've reached an understanding on them

Beyond that? I don't think you can classify superheroes based entirely on build; it's based on how they act that they better fit the roles. So, maybe less focus on how big they are and more on what they do?

Which, I think, was kinda what 4E was trying to do.

I've failed to follow you.

First, the Medicine skill does have a defined mechanical function, on p 62 of the Basic PDF:

A Wisdom (Medicine) check lets you try to stabilize a dying companion or diagnose an illness.​

This is elaborated on p 76, which says:

You can use your action to administer first aid to an unconscious creature and attempt to stabilize it, which requires a successful DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check.​

As in 4e, these do not exhaust what can be done with the Medicine skill. But they set a minimum for what, according to the rulebooks, the skill can be used to do.

Second, I don't understand why, when I refer to a character who is described/conceived by his/her player as a miracle working healer but who lacks any corresponding mechanical abilities, that you would nominate as an instance a character who does have such abilities, namely, the Medicine skill.

Third, you haven't really explained what you think the link between WIS checks (whether or not buffed by the Medicine proficiency) encompass miracles.

And I think I'm going to accept that I can't explain it that well and bow out of this. I am uncertain how to proceed from here, and reviews of my comments made up to this point reveal that they could be taken as a slam on the playing style of another or as hostile in tone. As such, I cannot claim I am in the right on this topic.

 

[steeldragons]

For brevity I've stopped here.

If only. We can only hope.

Unfortunately, that is not the case as, if you had read beyond those first two things [and I have no reason to believe you didn't], everything else...every other type of character in my post, other than what you quoted, is describing ever descending circles and levels of granularity and specialty.

Albeit with some attempts at injecting some humor into the raging stampede of ridiculous this thread has become at this point, with all of the "Us's" and "Thems" well established. Nobody will be changing anyone's mind/view/opinions/preferences and/or perspectives. So it really is as useful as banging one's head against a brick wall for anyone reading it and expecting any sort of "reasoned/rational answer" to the questions posed.

Thus, if you had acknowledged what I'd actually posted, you would not have been able to make these little proclamations about "At this level of abstraction...". Because everything from there [after fighter or magic-user], from "Cleric" onward, is less and less abstracted.

So, ya know, good for you. You can take quotes out of context, use them to support your points, and comment on what you want supported. Well done.

Just wanted to point this out to those who might not have noticed or read the actual post involved. But it, most certainly, was not cut where it was "for brevity".

 

[Imaro]

Now, explain something to me. One of the most common 4e criticisms was about the AEDU structure. What you've just talked about here, the fighter can do one time, before taking a short rest anyway. So, why was it such a terrible thing in 4e to have AEDU structure, something that completely broke people's brains, but, 5e can do exactly the same thing without comment.

Sigh... I guess it's full blown edition war time since I don't see what this has to do with roles, ok then...

First, I don't speak for everyone who didn't like the AEDU structure... so I'm not sure why you're asking me about everyone... I can only answer for myself...

Now first let's clarify something here... What I describe above is not the use of one ability, the only thing that can't happen again in that sequence is Action Surge and Action surge is described as... "[You] push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment". So you're exerting yourself past your normal limits to pull this off. the act is explicitly called out as going beyond your normal limits and thus it makes sense that you need to rest (short or long) in order to repeat it. this is the only ability the Champion has like that... unlike the 4e fighter whose reasons for being able to pull off numerous dailies but never the same one aren't ever concretely explained...

Now if you want to get specific and look at another example of non-AEDU fighter abilities the Battlemaster can pull off maneuvers as long as he has superiority dice left... is that at-will? is it encounter or is it daily? Guess what, it's none of those... so again tell me how this is AEDU structure??

IOW, why can't my fighter do that twice? And, how come only my fighter can do that? Why can't my rogue learn sweeping strike?

Your fighter can't do it twice before resting because Action Surge is his most tiring ability... Your Rogue can learn Sweeping Attack through multi-classing... or through the Martial Adept feat... this is way easier and much more flexible than trying to learn the powers of another class in 4e...

 

[Hussar]

No, not edition warring. Just looking for understanding and I think I see now. The reason there's no roles in 5e for some people is the same as the idea that there are no AEDU structure in 5e - it's not specifically called out as such, and thus it doesn't exist. It's all about presentation. I look at Battlemasters and see AEDU structure. It's presented differently, but, it's pretty much exactly the same.