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D&D 5E What are the Roles now?

So essentially you're not matching a particular character to a role... a mash up or mix of two roles would not be performing a 4e role... it would be something different from either one.

This isn't even true in 4e itself, where playing by those combat roles has the most benefits.

There should be no such assumptions about what characters have to do to contribute. There are plenty of other things which could fill out additional combat roles, and every character that falls somewhere in between can contribute.

No. That's what you have wrong. The substance of the 4e roles does not cover everything significant.

Again look at my original statement. But I'll clarify.

On page 16 of the 4th edition Players Handbook the 4 roles are described.

In 5th edition, in combat each player character combatant is filling one of these roles described on page 16 of the 4th edition PHB if attempting to win the combat in a standard way. They might be good or bad at the role but those are the roles.
 

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Again look at my original statement. But I'll clarify.

On page 16 of the 4th edition Players Handbook the 4 roles are described.

In 5th edition, in combat each player character combatant is filling one of these roles described on page 16 of the 4th edition PHB if attempting to win the combat in a standard way. They might be good or bad at the role but those are the roles.

Let's agree to disagree.

Why did Wizards of the Coast take the roles out in your opinion?
 

Again look at my original statement.

Ok, let's...

The roles described on page 16 of the 4TH edition PHB match 5e characters pretty well.

How does this make anything more clear?


But I'll clarify.

It seems like you've been clarifying, and by that I mean narrowing the circumstances in which these 4e roles apply to characters in 5e, since you first posted.

On page 16 of the 4th edition Players Handbook the 4 roles are described.

Yep...

In 5th edition, in combat each player character combatant is filling one of these roles described on page 16 of the 4th edition PHB if attempting to win the combat in a standard way. They might be good or bad at the role but those are the roles.

Ah, more narrowing... so now they apply if the character s attempting to win the combat in a standard way (what does this even mean in a game where your imagination is the limit?)... this really is a far cry from your original statement... so now they don't even apply in combat all the time... Yeah how are these clarifying anything?
 

The role labels are meant to apply at the level of game play, not within the fiction. 4e doesn't hide from the fact that it is a set of rules for playing a game.

One conceit of that game is that enemies are typically encountered in relatively discrete groups rather than essentially endless waves. This is a conceit that D&D borrows from fantasy fiction, and particularly pulp fantasy. (The same conceit is found in other fiction with pulp origins, such as super hero comics. It can also be found in some non-puplish fantasy, eg romantic fantasy, because the characters regard it as dishonourable to deploy excessive force against an honourable foe.)

Given this conceit, there are only a finite amount of attacks to be delivered, and hence a finite amount of damage to be taken, before any given combat is over. Defenders "defend" because, in virtue of their mechanical abilities, they draw more of the attacks onto themselves then would result from a strictly random or even distribution of the attacks across the PCs, and thereby absorb more of the potential damage (via a combination of high AC meaning some potential damage is not actualised, and robust hit point totals which means that actualised damage isn't as likely to be fatal).

In the fiction, this mechanical "defending" may or may not take the form of defending. The game leaves it up to the player of the PC to colour what is going on, what exactly a mark means, why exactly the NPCs rush towards the fighter whose player has just used Come and Get It, etc. This is one of the points at which 4e is closer to a free-descriptor-style RPG (like FATE, or HeroWars/Quest, or Marvel Heroic RP) than other versions of D&D.

A "leader" may or may not lead in the fiction. (And p 16 of the PHB notes as much.) The leadership, from the role point of view, consists in the fact that they act as force mulitpliers for the party to which they belong - they multiply the force of the defender by supplying buffs and hit points, the force of the striker by supplying extra attacks, and of the whole party by conferring positional advantage through movement abilities.

A "striker", as you note, is not unique in attacking. What is distinctive about a 4e striker is that damage-delivery is his/her main combat function. The closest thing in the PHB to a pure striker is the archer ranger. (The melee ranger is more likely to have to find ways to withstand being at the centre of the scrum, and hence have at least a touch of defender capability; the rogue and even moreso the warlock mixes striking with control.)

A "controller", like a striker, degrades the enemy, but generally does so outside the hit point system. (In 4e, especially the PHB, there is a legacy treatment of AoE damage as also a controller function. This is entirely a legacy matter, because the classic D&D wizard both does AoE hit point damage via the artillery function, plus bypasses hit points via charm, web, slow etc.) The degrading takes the form of disrupting formations/positions (eg forced movement) and condition imposition (which often takes the form of action denial).

"Striker" and "controller" are not roles that occur in nature, as it were. They depend upon a mechanical convention, long part of D&D, that some ways of degrading an enemy, but not all, are measured via hit point depletion. In an RPG system in which there was no difference between hitting some one for "damage", and hitting someone and "stunning" them, the contrast between striker and controller would disappear (examples of such RPGs include HeroWars/Quest, Marvel Heroic RP, and arguably Tunnels & Trolls).

Certain features of controlling, defending and leading also depend upon the fact that D&D uses figures on maps (whether literally or in the imagination) to adjudicate combat positioning. In an RPG in which positioning was not treated in this way, forced movement and "leading" by way of conferring bonus movement would disappear, and hence some of 4e's role distinctions would also not apply to that game. Marvel Heroic, HeroQuest Revised and Tunnels & Trolls are all examples of this, and so is AD&D as far as melee (but not ranged combat and closing to melee) are concerned.

This is why I have stressed upthread that roles are about function in the context of fiction meeting mechanics. Strip away the action economy, the positioning rules, the distinction between hit points and condition imposition, and the 4e roles disappear with them.

But I don't think 5e has stripped many of those things away. It still has positioning rules based on a real or imagined map (eg movement rates, distances, effects etc all measured in feet). It still has conditions as a way to degrade the enemy without depleting hit points. It still has an action economy. So it still has the mechanical raw material out of which the 4e roles emerged.

One thing that is different about 5e, though, is the mechanical duration of combats. Fewer round of combat mean fewer events of character movement (either PC or NPC/monster), less time for imposed conditions to matter, etc. By making movement more liberal it also makes positioning in combat easier, which reduces the distinctive significance of granting allies free/bonus movement or imposing forced movement on enemies. These features have the potential to reduce the significance, in 5e, of the mechanical features that underpin 4e's roles - much as in AD&D, because melee is sticky by default and there is no movement once in melee, there is no distinction between melee strikers and defenders, nor any significant scope for leading or controlling that focuses on movement.

Just getting to this post now. It is again very revealing. I think you could run a seminar on these topics. My concern, of course, is the distance it puts between what would make sense in fiction and what we make for the game only. I don't think I have much to contribute to the discussion anymore, but thank you for helping me to understand why this terminology and combat philosophy became so significant.
 


Becaiuse D&D fans hate being told what to do.

DANGER: DO NOT PUSH BUTTON. JUST TAKE THE TREASURE.

boom. 4 dead PCs

Having actually used that trap and gotten that result, I can attest to this.

And, I think you hit on the main issue; the way 4E presented roles, it came across to some people as the game telling them what to do with their characters.
 


Having actually used that trap and gotten that result, I can attest to this.

And, I think you hit on the main issue; the way 4E presented roles, it came across to some people as the game telling them what to do with their characters.

I don't think that was the entirety of it... there was flexibility that was lost, for example in 2e, 3e and 5e my fighter can be a top tier archer... in 4e (until the Slayer 2 or 3 years later) he couldn't be because he was designed to be a Defender... That isn't just presentation, that's mechanics enforcing a certain playstyle with the fighter that hadn't been enforced before,
 

But the 4e books says he should be a defender. Which is what we're (or at least I) am getting at. 4e shoehorned classes into a particular role by telling you what role each class is. 5e isn't like that at all.

Also, he's not a striker at all. he doesn't do any more damage than any other standard fighter.

Ok, let's...



How does this make anything more clear?




It seems like you've been clarifying, and by that I mean narrowing the circumstances in which these 4e roles apply to characters in 5e, since you first posted.



Yep...



Ah, more narrowing... so now they apply if the character s attempting to win the combat in a standard way (what does this even mean in a game where your imagination is the limit?)... this really is a far cry from your original statement... so now they don't even apply in combat all the time... Yeah how are these clarifying anything?

I stated it that way to exclude "I fight by pushing guys off cliffs" guy and "I hack the security system and SHPT them with their own miniguns" elf.

Which 5e character doesn't fill a 4e role when doing its thing in combat?
 


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