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D&D 5E What are the Roles now?

Sorta depends on class and/or build. Barbarians get away with it by having decent defenses and good HP (or ablative THP or whatever), and Avengers generally have stellar AC. Sorcerers, for example, usually get their attack stat to AC (Dex as normal, Str from a feature for Dragon and Cosmic Sorcerers). So there are some Strikers that fall into the "tanky bruiser" category, to appropriate a League of Legends term. In general, I'd say (most) Strikers are less fragile than (most) Controllers, but more fragile than (most) Leaders, and all of them are much more fragile than even a low-HP Defender.

Some good points, strikers do vary in defenses, but I do find most have average to low endurance vis a vis healing surges. I find that in multi-encounter adventures strikers are the most likely PCs to run out of healing surges, at which point pressing on is risky at best. It's much more efficient to heal defenders than strikers in absolute hp terms, on average, due to their higher healing surge value from higher hp and buffer of healing surges. Also from personal experience, the players of strikers are the most likely to overextend themselves and get surrounded. YMMV.

I agree in general with your comments on the Bard, Fighter and Monk.

And that--again, IMO--is the problem of designing classes without deciding on a foundation (role) first. Let the player build whatever they like on top of it--and do whatever they want inside that building. That's the player's business. The designer's business should be just as you've said: Avoid "good at all/most things" and "good at few/no things," which means seeking "good at some things." Deciding which things in particular is deciding what role, even if you don't formally call it anything whatsoever.

I agree.
 

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There was a post asking why I thought Wizards should go to a new audience, but I can't find it now...

It was mine :)

Personally, I think they should find one because if they try to persue the 3E/Pathfinder crowd, they're fighting an uphill battle.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Besides I have seen some Pathfinder players post on Enworld that they're happy with moving to 5e.
So who will this new audience be if its not from the current roleplaying base?

5E's attempt to be a one-size-fits-all edition doesn't seem to please many people
(AD&D fans seem to think it's too modern, 3E fans dislike the multiclassing, 4E fans dislike solved problems being reintroduced to make sweeping generlizations).

So far it is generating interest and following despite your above statements. Question is: Can they maintain the 5e buzz? Time will tell.

I believe they should focus on making a well-designed game that is easy to learn and play under the D&D brand rather than force themselves to make a game that competes against their earlier products.

You're forgetting about profit. There are plenty of fantasy-hearbreakers (well designed) that do not make as much money as the Preserved Sacred-Cow Game and before you tell me they never had the D&D brand backing them, might I remind you about 4e (new take on D&D) and the birth of Pathfinder (large player base sticking to the old way). So you're recommending they do design something new again and split the D&D fanbase even further? Please no! :.-(
 

It was mine :)

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Besides I have seen some Pathfinder players post on Enworld that they're happy with moving to 5e.
So who will this new audience be if its not from the current roleplaying base?

So far it is generating interest and following despite your above statements. Question is: Can they maintain the 5e buzz? Time will tell.

You're forgetting about profit. There are plenty of fantasy-hearbreakers (well designed) that do not make as much money as the Preserved Sacred-Cow Game and before you tell me they never had the D&D brand backing them, might I remind you about 4e (new take on D&D) and the birth of Pathfinder (large player base sticking to the old way). So you're recommending they do design something new again and split the D&D fanbase even further? Please no! :.-(

Ah, sorry for missing it. I'll start this post off by saying I'm not an economist, marketer, or sales person and this is all just my personal musings, so I'm not sure how much they actually matter. I feel like Wizards should expand the audience of D&D and bring in new players; leave catering to their existing or past fanbase as a secondary priority. I'm assuming that the focuses I listed would lead to a profitable game. In my opinion, the revenue from D&D mostly comes from the brand name and not the underlying rules; people outside the tabletop RPG community typically consider D&D to be the one and only game out there (akin to how people call any video game a Nintendo if you catch my drift). I believe D&D 4E proved that.

I'd be very interested in what the marketing and sales meetings of Pathfinder looked like. It feels like their target audience was D&D 3E players in light of Wizard's abysmal early 4E marketing ("Let's insult our player base with a video about confusing grappling rules", etc.) and took off into its semi-own right from there.

D&D is practically a rounding error on Wizard's and Hasbro's financial reports compared to stuff like Magic: The Gathering, which in my opinion allows the D&D division to have so much freedom to do what they want as long as they don't ruin the overall brand, look, and feel of D&D. I feel like D&D's current status as a cultural icon and relative giant in the tabletop RPG industry has led to its stagnation as a game for the past 5 or 6 years and if it's not careful, a changing industry and shrinking market will leave it behind.

... And to relate this derail back to roles, I think 4E is a Defender because it's sticky and turns up in every discussion even when not appropriate, and 5E is a Leader trying to rally the fanbases :p
 


I was discussing general design principles, and my 4E experience is limited to three sessions (because of DM issues), so I don't have much to say about 4E. About 5E: one implication of the flat curve you mention is that 5E is also friendly to parties with heterogenous levels. You could have a 20th level Gandalf, a 14th level Aragorn, an 11th level Boromir, and a couple of 1st through 3rd level Hobbits in the party, and they'd all be able to contribute meaningfully. If proficiency bonuses were massive (+1 per level) then Gandalf would dominate the whole party in every field of endeavor from social intercourse to engineering to mountain climbing. Systems with a "god stat" that allow super-generalists like this tend not to be very fun in my opinion, unless you are explicitly going for over-the-top James Bond-ism (GURPS: Black Ops).

Anyway, that's why I think it's an important feature of 5E that they consciously made the variance so high, and the d20 roll such an important component of any skill challenge. And from there it follows that even a Shadow Monk with a total bonus of -1 to Intelligence (Nature) can still look for poisonous herbs for his herbalism kit in the wilderness with some hope of success, if he thinks to do so. It may or may not be realistic, but it's definitely a distinctive feature of 5E play.

These have always been traditional strengths of the AD&D and D&D games. It's nice that 5th Edition makes a good effort to return to them. If you start new characters at 1st level, they can contribute even if they adventure with much higher level characters. The example of the Lord of the Rings really brings this home.
 

I've often remarked that there's two parts to each of 4E's roles (maybe more). Defending is being tough enough to take hits and discouraging enemies from hitting others. Striking is strong attacks and avoiding enemies attacks. Leading is aiding the attacks of others and restoring their condition or health. Controlling is attacking multiple enemies and preventing enemies from attacking effectively. So that'd be Tough, Threatening, Strong, Evasive, Supportive/Enhancing, Recuperative/Healing, Area/Wide, and Weakening.

To do something similar for exploration and social shouldn't be too hard. I'm not sure it's practical to separate exploration and social as different things while social skills are mainly related to two or three stats and exploration skills are mainly related to five. I'd combine them. So they'd be Scout, Expert, Sage, Athlete, Friend, Liar, Foe, Listener, Investigator. Probably more I'm missing. Does it make sense to separate the social and exploration abilities in classes? Does it make sense to balance them between classes?

Everyone can participate in exploration and social interaction. The thief, bard, ranger, and druid are specialists at this, but everyone else should feel equally skilled.
 

Ugh. I'd written a longer reply, but it got eaten. I'll try for shorter this time.

It's quite telling that your analysis focuses entirely on combat. In the fiction referenced there, combat is handled by the fighters and at times by Gandalf--that's not the area where the hobbits make their contribution.

I...didn't focus entirely on combat. "Skill checks that Aragorn finds challenging..." is talking about skills and not combat, right?

And saying the hobbits don't contribute to combat pokes a hole in your "the hobbits can meaningfully contribute!" statement. "They can contribute...as long as they avoid all the places where they can't" should be true of all games ever. You can have any color you want, as long as the color you want is black. Catering to the minimum-level players by shielding them from the things that would hurt them or challenge them doesn't make 5e any more friendly to highest-and-lowest mixed parties than any prior edition of D&D. (Nor, for that matter, does it make 5e any less so.)

Let's say the hobbits have proficiency in Sleight of Hand and Deception, with Cha 14 and DX 16. They'll have +5 to picking someone's pocket where Aragorn might have +2 (he seems like a melee type to me), and they'll have +4 to attempts to talk themselves out of trouble when they're caught. The fact that Aragorn has +8 or +9 to his own best skills (Athletics, Stealth, Nature) is beside the point--the hobbits are contributing. If proficiency bonuses were a massive +1 per level or something, this would cease to be true, and heterogenous levels wouldn't work.

If we're adhering to the fiction, the hobbits' deception only matters one time IIRC (pretending to be goblins in Mordor) and sleight-of-hand never matters--and if we're not adhering to the fiction, you're being somewhat inconsistent about your standards. Also, Aragorn does not have +8 to +9 in his best skills. He has +9 to +10, depending on whether he went for capped stats or just 18s. For Gandalf, it's +10 to +11, same deal. Covering all of Aragorn's "best skills" is probably impossible unless we allow Ranger spells to substitute for some stuff he does (the herbal healing thing, frex)--but he's a leader of men as well as an expert tracker, so I'd say Persuasion, Stealth, and Nature myself; and since he's a Ranger (in fact, almost certainly the, or at least an, inspiration for D&D rangers) I'd expect him to be high-Dex rather than high-Str. (Nevermind the fact that he uses a two-handed sword once Narsil is reforged! :p)

This being D&D, of course, the hobbits will not stay level 2 for long. By the time they get through Helm's Deep they're probably level 6, and able to survive, contribute, and even thrive in combat. 2 6th level fighter hobbits slinging stones have, in D&D, a combat profile similar to a 14th level fighter. More DPR, less HP. In the fiction it doesn't work that way of course.

That they will level up wasn't the point. Something that is actually a challenge to Aragorn and Gandalf *when they set out* will be lethally dangerous to the hobbits in combat, and skill checks that would challenge them will be difficult or (potentially) impossible for the hobbits. The only difference is that, where the hobbits are specialized, they actually stand some chance of success (DC 20 with a +5 bonus ~ 30% success vs. Aragorn's 55% or Gandalf's 60%)--but that may or may not be true for other games anyway. Areas where they're weak are still, as in every edition, completely impossible (DC 20 with a -1 = 0% success), and any given task that is initially impossible will (almost) never become possible because 5e favors Ad/Dis rather than numeric bonuses. (As opposed to 4e, where the half-level bonus means a particular task might be impossible at level 1, hard at level 11, and between easy and moderate at level 21, as the character gains +11 to all ability checks, 10 from half-level, +1 from the "all stats increase by 1" for each new tier.)

BTW your combat math on the hobbits is off. Even at level 1, for them to be in the "10 to 15% range" requires AC 23, which is vanishingly rare in the MM, not exactly "many" foes.

Fair. I don't own an MM. That said? AC 21 or AC 20 is not particularly uncommon, as I understand it (just plate+shield or sufficiently high dex+natural/light armor), and that's only 10 percentage points easier to hit (20 to 25% range). I'd go into how Gandalf and Aragorn are doing 3-4 times as much damage (hitting 2-2.75x as often, rolling 2x as many attacks, offset by hobbits having a higher fraction of successful hits that are crits), but you've already excused the hobbits from having to take any risks in combats that would challenge Gandalf and Aragorn.
 


Bounded accuracy helps low level characters and monsters be effective attackers in combat.

Hitting 20-25% of the time doesn't strike me (no pun intended) as being "effective." It strikes me as being a frustrating whiff-fest. Even the 35% you'd get from attacking a Hobgoblin (AC 18, CR 1/2), Animated Armor (AC 18, CR 1), or Knight (AC 18, CR 3) isn't great; if the enemy deigns to carry shields, it drops to 25% again (not for the Hob though, it already has a shield).
 

Hitting 20-25% of the time doesn't strike me (no pun intended) as being "effective." It strikes me as being a frustrating whiff-fest. Even the 35% you'd get from attacking a Hobgoblin (AC 18, CR 1/2), Animated Armor (AC 18, CR 1), or Knight (AC 18, CR 3) isn't great; if the enemy deigns to carry shields, it drops to 25% again (not for the Hob though, it already has a shield).

I disagree. I'll take a 20-25% chance any day.
 

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