D&D 5E do CRs seem a bit arbitrary?

[FormerlyHemlock]

While it's a good example of how CR might not align perfectly with bounded accuracy, isn't an all-fighter party an aberration? I'd expect encounter guidelines to assume a more mixed party, probably even assume something like the iconic Fighter, Cleric, Magic-user, Thief.

CR is, by itself, sure. But 5e encounter guidelines also include a multiplier based on relative numbers (party outnumbers monsters 5:1 is apparently the base assumption).

I'm a software developer, so when I illustrate a problem I try to give you a simple illustration with as few variables as possible. But don't read that as a concession that the issue only occurs in examples that are easy to describe in two sentences--the essential character of the example doesn't change if you make it fighter/rogue/cleric/mage. In either case, the level 5 party and the level 8 party will do about as well as each other due to Banshees not caring about hit points and being glass cannons. The only real thing the 8th level party could do that the 5th level party can't is take feats like Lucky/Resilient (Con).

If someone wants to show that an 8th level party really can handle twice as much Banshee as a 5th level party, be my guest.

CR is, by itself, sure. But 5e encounter guidelines also include a multiplier based on relative numbers (party outnumbers monsters 5:1 is apparently the base assumption).

Multiplying an arbitrary and meaningless number by a precisely-calculated multiplier still yields an arbitrary number though. "Officially", 6 simultaneous Banshees is only an Easy encounter for 12 8th level PCs. Officially, they're supposed to be able to handle 7 of those encounters per adventuring day. Do you think it would work out that way? I don't.

It's true that the Banshee is atypical, and that's the real point: CR is basically just mean of the 3/2 power of DPR and HP. For any monster that is more than a sack of HP with damage attached, CR will fail to measure what makes the monster interesting. That's why Intellect Devourers are infamous.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

What kind of fighter has a +0 to Con saves.

A Dex fighter. An archer-fighter. Any of the wondrous fighter build options which don't rely on using your torso as your shield.

Nitpick: that's only true if the Dex fighter has a Con bonus low enough to cancel out his proficiency bonus (e.g. Con 6 at 4th level).

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm a software developer, so when I illustrate a problem I try to give you a simple illustration with as few variables as possible.

A good practice. And I did find the example both clear and valid.

the essential character of the example doesn't change if you make it fighter/rogue/cleric/mage. In either case, the level 5 party and the level 8 party will do about as well as each other due to Banshees not caring about hit points and being glass cannons. The only real thing the 8th level party could do that the 5th level party can't is take feats like Lucky/Resilient (Con).

If someone wants to show that an 8th level party really can handle twice as much Banshee as a 5th level party, be my guest.

Like I said, I'm with you on the point you were making. But, class mix makes a big difference - though, now that I think of it, maybe the same kind of difference sunlight makes in your original example. CR might assume Cleric/Fighter/Magic-user/Thief (or not) but it probably doesn't assume 'Cleric casts Silence...'

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

A good practice. And I did find the example both clear and valid.

Like I said, I'm with you on the point you were making. But, class mix makes a big difference - though, now that I think of it, maybe the same kind of difference sunlight makes in your original example. CR might assume Cleric/Fighter/Magic-user/Thief (or not) but it probably doesn't assume 'Cleric casts Silence...'

Okay, I agree with you there that class makes a big difference--although Fighters have Con proficiency so the difference it makes might be negative. Good idea on the Silence though.

 

[Sunseeker]

Okay, I agree with you there that class makes a big difference--although Fighters have Con proficiency so the difference it makes might be negative. Good idea on the Silence though.

I'm actually surprised that Banshees aren't immune to silence due to the wail being their well, thing.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I'm actually surprised that Banshees aren't immune to silence due to the wail being their well, thing.

I think it's good for lore to give monsters weaknesses. Fighting werewolves? Make sure you bring silver weapons. There's a Medusa in that cave? Make sure you don't look at her face! Vampires in the forest? Never invite a stranger into your home after sunset! Banshees? Stuff your ears with beeswax!

I wish every MM stat block had notes on the habits/weaknesses of monsters. ("Gnolls are infuriated by cats and will kill them preferentially even to armed knights." "Owlbears are rubbish at climbing trees but cannot resist trying." "Vampires have no reflections." "Kenku love to gamble." "Zodar... have no known weaknesses.")

 

[Tony Vargas]

When I was a kid, that aspect was one of the things that I liked about game in my earliest experiences with it. It played a bit like a B-movie - find monster, can't hurt monster, figure out weakness, confront monster, use weakness, the end(?) - and I was quite the fan. It can lead to a sort of rock/paper/scissors/lizard/Spock kind of play dynamic if you take it too far, though.

 

[Sunseeker]

I think it's good for lore to give monsters weaknesses. Fighting werewolves? Make sure you bring silver weapons. There's a Medusa in that cave? Make sure you don't look at her face! Vampires in the forest? Never invite a stranger into your home after sunset! Banshees? Stuff your ears with beeswax!

Sure, weaknesses are cool, but I don't think that's a particularly good one. I always figured banshees weaknesses were well, the fact that they're pretty much just ghosts who can scream.

I wish every MM stat block had notes on the habits/weaknesses of monsters. ("Gnolls are infuriated by cats and will kill them preferentially even to armed knights." "Owlbears are rubbish at climbing trees but cannot resist trying." "Vampires have no reflections." "Kenku love to gamble." "Zodar... have no known weaknesses.")

This MM is pretty good at that to be sure.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

This MM is pretty good at that to be sure.

I haven't found that to be the case. I like the section on Giants, but other than that, this MM is pretty meh when it comes to habits/ecology/motivations.

Pop quiz: ghouls are lurking in the sewers. What spoor can the PCs find to clue them in to the nature of the threat, and what weaknesses can the PCs exploit once they do?

I can make something up here, but the MM doesn't actually have anything useful for me. It doesn't even tell me what the organizational structure of ghouls is, in the absence of a ghast. There's plenty of info if I just want to plop the ghouls onto a combat grid and have at it, and some backstory around how the race was created, but not much about how ghouls actually live or behave.

 

[Tormyr]

"Pick up +0 to Con saves" = "the delta is +0". Proficiency bonus is +3 at 5th level and still +3 at 8th level. Yes, ASIs could have gone to Con, but my observation is that they're relatively unlikely to have done so: Fighter 6 and 8 probably get spent on things like +2 Str, GWM, or Resilient (Wis). Extra offense probably isn't going to make much difference in the Banshee fight, because the Banshees already have enough HP (58) to ensure that they'll get their wails off safely, and +2 to Str isn't going to change that.

Are you just nit-picking, or do you substantively disagree? Do you really think that 8th level fighters can handle twice as much XP worth of Banshees as 5th level fighters can? If so, why?

While the Banshee is a great example of a lower CR monster that stays relevant at higher levels, I think some of the other parts of this argument do not hold up very well.

The first part is that fighters are being looked at in isolation. The relevant improvement a fighter gets in levels 6,7, and 8 is some combination of 4 ASI or 2 feats. Unless Con ASI was chosen, the Con save is not getting better. However parties are usually somewhat diverse. Barbarians get advantage on initiative. Clerics will generally get better at turn undead. Moon druid's beast strikes are magical. Monks' attacks are magical. Paladins grant the aura of protection. Sorcerer's can have elemental affinity or Bend Luck. Fiend Pact Warlocks get Dark One's Own Luck. Much of this can be a moot point though as silence is a 2nd level spell and daylight is a 3rd level spell. Both of these are available by the time the PCs are 5th level, rendering the banshee fairly powerless. And full spell casters get 4th level spells.

The second part is that no 8th level party handles twice as much of anything as well as they handled the original number at 5th level. An easy encounter of CR 4 creatures for a fifth level party is 1. An easy encounter of CR4 creatures for a 8th level party is 2, but it is a harder easy encounter. The difference becomes more apparent when looking at a hard encounter which is 2 for the 5th level party and 3 for the 8th level party.

The fighter does not necessarily have to be better at dealing with the banshee, but the party most likely will be better at dealing with the Banshee.