D&D (2024) Scaling monsters in the Monster Manual?

[mellored]

So a lot of creatures have stat blocks at different levels.
I.e red dragon wyrmling (CR 4), young (CR 10), adult (CR 17), ancient (CR 24)

But what if you want a monster that's in between those levels? Like a CR 14 red dragon. Or a CR 6 wolf (moon druid).

Should the monster manual have stat blocks that scale?

Pros:
more flexible,
reduce page count,

Cons: require more math as you have to calculate the HP and stats of a CR 14 red dragon.
*though any digital tool could easily make this a slider.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

As a digital product only. Having multiple pages taken up with minor stat changes for one type of dragon are multiple pages that aren't offering other monsters. Personally, I think we've already got too many pages devoted to this.

I'd rather the Monster Manual emulate the Monster Overhaul and have a single unified dragon with maybe two or three age category write-ups (the Monster Overhaul just has two, for young and old dragons) and then, within those entries, have a table with the changes necessary to provide different dragon subtypes. I don't think it'll impact 99% of games if a blue dragon and a red dragon of the same age category have the same stats, other than scale color, breath weapon and what energy type they're immune to, for instance.

 

[Yaarel]

But what if you want a monster that's in between those levels? Like a CR 14 red dragon. Or a CR 6 wolf (moon druid).
...
Cons: require more math as you have to calculate the HP and stats of a CR 14 red dragon.
*though any digital tool could easily make this a slider.

There can be a table at the front of the book, along with definitions for Statistics (Creature Type, etcetera), or at the back of the book as an appendix. The table lists each CR and the expected Hit Points, AC, Saves, Attack and Damage. The DM can use this table for quick ballpark numbers between Young (CR 10) and Adult (CR 17), for example.

 

[DEFCON 1]

No. I do not want to have to manually write down monster statblocks. I want monster statblocks that I can photocopy and/or cut/paste as-is.

If 5E had a electronic Monster Builder like 4E did that could auto-scale monsters up and down and then I could copy the new block into Microsoft Word, then I'd be fine with that. But a sliding scale in an actual book that I'd have to handwrite all the numbers out of? No thanks.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I voted no because there are too many differences/power/abilities an adult dragon would have over a wyrmling, that it's just smoother to give it it's own statblock

 

[mellored]

There can be a table at the front of the book, along with definitions for Statistics (Creature Type, etcetera), or at the back of the book as an appendix. The table lists each CR and the expected Hit Points, AC, Saves, Attack and Damage. The DM can use this table for quick ballpark numbers between Young (CR 10) and Adult (CR 17), for example.

No. I do not want to have to manually write down monster statblocks. I want monster statblocks that I can photocopy and/or cut/paste as-is.

If 5E had a electronic Monster Builder like 4E did that could auto-scale monsters up and down and then I could copy the new block into Microsoft Word, then I'd be fine with that. But a sliding scale in an actual book that I'd have to handwrite all the numbers out of? No thanks.

Maybe if they have a scaling table in monster book, and a scaling app.

But leave the stat block in the books fixed.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Hot take: Maybe not every monster needs to scale.

A level 1 lich is probably an interesting spellcasting undead. (L1, the Secret of Bone Hill, had zombies and skeletons that could cast spells, which for some reason -- probably internal politics -- never made the jump to Monster Manual II.)

But do we need a level 2 lich? And a level 3? And a level 5?

If you're trying to fine-tune your encounter's challenge level, why not just toss in minions? Maybe that level 1 lich now gets a flying undead familiar. If you need more challenge, give him a level 1 death knight (LOL) bodyguard. Those three monster stat blocks are probably a lot more interesting than three different leveled variants of the same sub-lich.

Although there's obviously a market for a product that produces every possible CR for every possible monster in the SRD, for folks like @DEFCON 1, I suspect there's not a huge market for it.

 

[mellored]

But do we need a level 2 lich? And a level 3? And a level 5?

You are chained up to a pole, along with many others, arranged in a circle, and no memory of how you go there. In the middle a litch is performing some kind of ritual.

Suddenly your shackles fall to the ground as you see a shadowy figure picks their lock. A brutal yell is heard across the hall as a huge half naked Dragonborn comes charging in and smashing the litch, followed by a elf clad in shining armor.

Spells fly and blood is spilt as the battle rages. Your rescuers have the litch surrounded when it lets out a final spell, with black waves blasting from its. The elf steps in front of you shielding you from the blast and then falls dead as quiet fills the halls.

In the middle, you see the bones of the litch reanimated themselves. Clearly drained, but not destroyed. You and a handful of other survivor pick yourselves up. You need to stop this thing before it can regain strength.

Roll for initiative.
(Pulls out a CR 3 litch).


Is there a reason not to allow that?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Is there a reason not to allow that?

No, but that's not what I was arguing.

As per my example, just use the level 1 lich. If you want it more robust, give it maximum, rather than average, hit points. Give it an undead familiar and a bodyguard. If you need a little more threat, throw in some conventional skeletons or zombies. Maybe some of the skeletons are even disguised as the lich, for added chaos.

If you're the target audience for a book with 20 different lich entries, representing CRs 1-20 (although maybe we need CR 1/4 and CR 1/2 liches as well), along with every other monster, OK. I do like the idea of more than one type of undead spellcaster, but instead of making 20 of them, I'd either come up with a scaling chart (and online tool that generates material that can be copied and pasted), or a lich NPC lineage and just build them like a PC instead.

Going the opposite direction, do we need 20 dire rats of different CRs? I can see the argument for having two or maybe three choices, but 20?

 

[mellored]

I do like the idea of more than one type of undead spellcaster, but instead of making 20 of them, I'd either come up with a scaling chart (and online tool that generates material that can be copied and pasted)

That was the suggestion. To make monster blocks scale.