D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

Sunshadow: I don't think it's all that bad.

Remember there's a lot of design space for making the wizard's life easier. The DM could go easy on legendary resistance. Wotc could introduce items that loosen the restrictions on Concentration or spell slots.

Compare Rolemaster: there are lots of fantasy rpgs where magic users are practically worthless without magic items such as "power point multipliers".

Doesn't help Celtavians wizard right now, of course.

But there's nothing fundamentally weak about a wizard. Probably better Wotc was overly cautious than if they let the W dominate as in previous editions...

:)

That is a matter of opinion. Personally, I think the loss of variety of genuinely useful spells is not worth the cost overall. With the right DM, it could still be a lot of fun for everyone, but that is true for every edition, so I don't see much point in being so hyper conservative on a class that has always been about raw power. If they wanted to do that, they just needed to create a new class with a smaller spell list, and scrap the wizard.

And I never said weak, I said uninteresting; there is a key difference between the two. The wizard class will never be weak, but it can very easily be made boring and uninteresting. 3rd edition too often made it boring for the rest of the party without DM intervention; this edition too often goes the other way without generous DM support. I don't see that much has been gained aside from demonstrating that the designers have no real idea of how to balance that particular class while keeping it interesting at the same time, and since Paizo has the same challenges, it may just be that the class itself needs a serious rethink or needs to be scrapped for a better designed class. The wizard worked fine when it was the only arcane caster class, but it doesn't seem to work nearly as well when the system has other casters.
 

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The save chance issue is debatable as this thread shows. For limits on casting, there may only be limited slots and the concentration mechanic, but their overuse of that one mechanic hurts a lot of the benefits reaped from loosening the other restrictions.
At first, targets will fail a bad save something like 60-70% of the time (low level non-proficient saves are as bad as -2), while proficient targets might save 50-60% of the time. As you level up, proficient saves proximately keep pace (maybe falling behind a little when casters stats hit 18 and 20), but non-proficient saves fall further behind.

Officially, they may be the most flexible ever, but I've seen some variant or other that basically accomplished the prepare spells but cast them spontaneously in just about every home game of 3rd edition and PF I've ever played, so for me, that isn't that much of a gain, but rather a formal acknowledgement that the older official version was usually ignored or modified.
I find your assertion that a rule was 'usually' ignored or modified in the RAW-uber-alles 3.x era... implausible. One of the goals of 5e was to get back to the pre-3.x tradition of the DM feeling free to use extensive variants, in contrast 3e RAW-based player 'entitlement.' So, yes, the Tier 1 casters in 5e are even more versatile than they were in 3.5, which is saying something.

And the use of the concentration mechanic doesn't ease pressure on spell slots, it just changes how the pressure is applied, as an example early in the thread of being faced with the decision of which concentration spell to cast shows quite clearly, as does the point that people felt compelled to save their actual slots for truly meaningful moments,
Sounds like fewer spell slots being used. Also, sounds like D&D.

Mechanically, wizards are still doing fine overall, and very few people are challenging that, but what really hurt more than anything was the nerfs to the individual spells that did things like force an abjurer to take sleep if they want to be half way functional in combat even if they have absolutely no in game reason to support taking that spell over an abjuration spell.
Sleep has always been /the/ 1st-level combat spell. In classic D&D, you hoped your magic-user started with Sleep (it was random), because without it you might as well just throw darts. It's nothing to do with 'nerfing' other spells, it's just another way 5e evokes the classic game.


My concerns are variety. If I specialize in something, I want to do it well enough to be useable in combat. If I'm an enchanter, I want to be able to take a mind over in combat. I don't need to do multiple like 3E. I would like to have a very high chance of maintaining a single domination spell. That doesn't appear possible in this edition.
With good reason, there are a lot of /very/ powerful individual monsters in the DMG. In the playtest, a common encounter design was multiple lesser monsters and one more powerful boss - dependably being able to dominate the latter would own the encounter. In the DMG guidelines, a lone monster is the most straightforward way to design a challenging encounter.

What you are asking for is excessive, game-breaking power. 5e doesn't say you can't have it, but you will have to be 'clever' or game the DM a bit to get there. It doesn't give it to you by default, in RAW, the way 3.x did, but it doesn't actively try to block you from ruining the game experience for everyone else like 4e did, either.

It is that way for a lot of spells. There seems to be only one sure path to useful spells: no save spells attack roll spells or short-duration spells like a round or two for effectiveness or spells that don't easily break from a common event during the course of gameplay. That limits your spell list substantially.
If you want a 'sure thing,' yes, you'd be limiting your choices. If you're willing to take a chance - you have more. Use those riskier choices cleverly and you'll get some very good results, some of the time. That's part of what made casters fun in classic D&D and 5e has come through with a similar feel.
 
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Mechanically, wizards are still doing fine overall, and very few people are challenging that, but what really hurt more than anything was the nerfs to the individual spells that did things like force an abjurer to take sleep if they want to be half way functional in combat even if they have absolutely no in game reason to support taking that spell over an abjuration spell.
Just out of curiosity, what low-level combat useful abjuration spell existed in earlier editions, other than possibly protection from evil?
 

With good reason, there are a lot of /very/ powerful individual monsters in the DMG. In the playtest, a common encounter design was multiple lesser monsters and one more powerful boss - dependably being able to dominate the latter would own the encounter. In the DMG guidelines, a lone monster is the most straightforward way to design a challenging encounter.

Seems even a low level monsters would save fairly quick given domination allows a new save each time it takes damage.

What you want is excessive, game-breaking power. 5e doesn't say you can't have it, but you will have to be 'clever' or game the DM a bit to get there, it doesn't give it to you by default, in RAW, the way 3.x did, but it doesn't block you from ruining the game experience for everyone else like 4e did.

Ruining the game experience for everyone else? That's the DM's fault, not the player.

If you want a 'sure thing,' yes, you'd be limiting your choices. If you're willing to take a chance - you have more. Use those riskier choices cleverly and you'll get some very good results, some of the time. That's part of what made casters fun in classic D&D and 5e has come through with a similar feel.

I want as sure a thing as possible given my limited number of spell slots.
 

Just out of curiosity, what low-level combat useful abjuration spell existed in earlier editions, other than possibly protection from evil?

Shield...existed in the mu spellist from Basic onward.
Hold Portal...also...immediately comes to mind.

Wizard Lock [became Arcane Lock somewhere along the way].
Blur...arguably abjuration/illusion
Misdirection...abjuration/transmutation..or abj/divination?

Protection from Normal Missiles (a 3rd level spell in 1 & 2e)
Pro. from Evil 10' rad., 3rd level spell 1 & 2e.
 

Seems even a low level monsters would save fairly quick given domination allows a new save each time it takes damage.
That's actually an interesting question. Assuming you're fighting Tom, Dick, and Harry, and Harry gets this funny look and starts beating on Tom, do Tom and Dick immediately start beating on Harry, or do they look for the guy in the dress? Especially since it's a combat situation, as you said, and they have several other people to choose to beat on? That seems like a campaign and even encounter specific question to me, based on the enemy and their knowledge of the capabilities of magic.

Anyway, enchantment is right up there with illusion as being campaign and DM specific in terms of its utility.
 

Shield...existed in the mu spellist from Basic onward.
Hold Portal...also...immediately comes to mind.

Wizard Lock [became Arcane Lock somewhere along the way].
Blur...arguably abjuration/illusion
Misdirection...abjuration/transmutation..or abj/divination?

Protection from Normal Missiles (a 3rd level spell in 1 & 2e)
Pro. from Evil 10' rad., 3rd level spell 1 & 2e.
I was thinking of 1st level more specifically, but yea, Blur, Protection from Normal Missiles, and Protection from Evil 10' are all good spells (although I think Blur is illusion is 3e and beyond). And shield is a fantastic spell in 5e, although I don't know it provides the combat utility that [MENTION=6667193]sunshadow21[/MENTION] was talking about.
 

Seems even a low level monsters would save fairly quick given domination allows a new save each time it takes damage.
With good reason, there are a lot of /very/ powerful individual monsters in the DMG. In the playtest, a common encounter design was multiple lesser monsters and one more powerful boss - dependably being able to dominate the latter would own the encounter. In the DMG guidelines, a lone monster is the most straightforward way to design a challenging encounter.

Whether that happens at low or high level, if domination was too easy to maintain, it'd be a problem. A new save when taking damage would help in the lone-monster scenario, for instance. In the other scenario it might or might not - depends on how uppity the minions are. ;)

Ruining the game experience for everyone else? That's the DM's fault, not the player.
That's a complicated philosophical point. If a player chooses an already-overpowered class, and does everything he can to try to dominate play and wreck the campaign, is it his fault if he succeeds, or is it the DM's fault for not stopping him? In 5e, clearly, the DM is meant to have the power to stop such a player cold. In 3.x, with the RAW-uber-alles zietgiest surrounding it, it'd've been less clear. But does either case really absolve the player of guilt for making the attempt in the first place?

I want as sure a thing as possible given my limited number of spell slots.
That's not an unreasonable approach, but it doesn't invalidate there being higher risk/reward options.
 

I was thinking of 1st level more specifically, but yea, Blur, Protection from Normal Missiles, and Protection from Evil 10' are all good spells (although I think Blur is illusion is 3e and beyond). And shield is a fantastic spell in 5e, although I don't know it provides the combat utility that @sunshadow21 was talking about.

How much more "utility" in combat are you looking for than "stops things from hitting you"? hahaha. Particularly from an abjuration perspective.

Also, not for nothing, I know you asked for combat spells, but trust me, when you're RUNNING from a combat/trying to avoid being captured/engaged in battle again, Hold Portal to slow down pursuit is definitely a handy "combat-useful" [or "combat-avoiding/-ending"] spell. (unless it's something big/ogre-strong that can just break through in 1 round);)
 

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