the Jester
Legend
Well, it isn't usually used that specifically anymore, but prone actually does indeed mean face down, and supine is face up.[/pedantry]
D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E
- Thread starter KarinsDad
- Start date
Well, it isn't usually used that specifically anymore, but prone actually does indeed mean face down, and supine is face up.[/pedantry]
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
I have never yet done 7 fights in a single day[1]. It's hard to imagine a situation where I would have that much concentrated-yet-discretized violence on call. If there are 3 wererats, 1 chimera, a drow priestess of Lolth, 2 squads of 12 drow warriors, and an elite drow warrior (6 Easy through Hard encounters for a party of 3 7th level PCs, just barely under the 15000 XP daily threshold), why in the world would they all be broken up into bite-sized packets like that unless the PCs did something clever to break them up? By default, I'd just say there's "a drow war party" in the vicinity, probably split between two locations (one with priestess, one with warrior), a chimera, and three were-rats. That's four encounters, and no guarantee that the PCs will even stumble over the were-rats or the chimera.
The only case I can see actually doing 7+ encounters in a day is an urban invasion: the capital falls, and various waves of enemy troops assault the PCs as they're trying to get the civilians to safety. Every few minutes another group of enemies swirls towards you out of the concentrated mass of invading soldiery. (10 orcs, then 6 warg cavalry, then two tertiary Witchlight Marauders, then 8 more orcs, then a secondary marauder...) Even in this situation where I have 7+ discrete combats available, I expect the PCs would find a way to disguise themselves or in some other way avoid the full 7 combats.
[1] Although a quick check on the daily encounter table tells me that I do approach the daily encounter XP budget, and probably exceed it... sometimes in a single encounter.
And so a foe is never knocked supine? Got it.
Yes, prone is both a synonym and antonym for supine.
Tony Vargas
Legend
As easy as it can be to roll over encounters in 5e, tuned as it is for fast combat, low level characters are fragile. Especially 1st, if there's any challenge to an encounter at all, you're likely to have one or more PCs drop. If they're not brought back up, it can create a death spiral effect, where the loss of the dropped PC's offense leaves a monster up longer, who then drops another PC...
Of course (per another thread) the DM can prevent such issues by dialing down encounters and fudging results when the monsters get lucky. Maybe it's just because I played AD&D for so long, but I feel like the pressure on spell resources for healing is meant to be there, however.
If there's no such pressure, then you don't experience any 'healing burden' and classes that would otherwise be expected to blow slots on healing would feel a little better off. In 3.5, CoDzilla was a pretty extreme example, but it was illustrative.
If you're finding Clerics, Druids, & Bards out-doing Wizards a bit at low level, that could explain it.
Even higher in apprentice tier, the pressure on healing spells can lessen a bit.
I'd hate to see 5e take healing potions in the direction 3.x went with WoCLWs, though.
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keterys
First Post
Yep, it's totally worth respecting action economy. That said, a healer's kit or goodberry is equally effective at getting someone back up and _almost_ as effective at keeping them up (sadly). The bonus action healing word is also tremendously worthwhile in that instance.
Cure wounds itself, though? Meh. Good for out of combat and little else.
The really clever thing is when you realize that your bard _could_ cure wounds someone to keep them in the fight or cast sleep _to end the fight_. We actually were keeping track at one point (different group of characters), in the theory that it might be valuable test data, and we found that offense was _at least_ twice as effective as heals. That is to say, not using a spell for offense meant we used twice as many spells for heals in the long run.
Hence, our current Cure Wounds-less party. It's worked just fine through Phandelver and Hoard of the Dragon Queen. We've only just started the sequel (some other noun of Tiamat), and it's still working just fine.
It also helps that I've got an imp familiar whose job is to immediately get back up anyone who drops, I'll grant, but I've only had him since 3rd level.
You should never count their ability to heal against them, regardless. It's pure addition. It just potentially means you should have even more of them in the party.
Which is hardly the right message to send to D&D Encounters, but I wouldn't expect it to take too long before someone notices how ridiculous a druid is for encounters and decides they should try that out next season.
Too late.
Erechel
Explorer
This post goes forever, now. I think that the original question has been answered several times, now. No, Low Level wizards do not suck. They have an array of class abilities that can make the difference in a party. And yet, the first level (the real weak level not only to wizards) goes fast as lightning: three orcs and you go to second level. You can face them with ease using several different spells (MM, BH, Sleep, even cantrips), and you have a spell that lasts for hours as armor. Six more, and you are in third. You need less money than other classes, and you cannot be left drained of resources (if you lock down a wizard in a cell, without his spellbook, he can still kill the guards from range with cantrips, or convince them to open the locks (friends cantrip) a feat no other class could do except other arcanes). You have an NPC to aid you (familiar) and a direct damage spell (MM). You can surpass several challenges by wit and creative thougt, with tools that not everyone has: "look at my, moron; you see me? (cantrip, minor illusion to grow fangs, or Light from your hands) I don't need weapons, or muscles to delete you. I can kill you with a thought or a gesture. Get off here and I let you live (kill an orc ally with a MM)". NPCs have no idea what is a level, and only very few can discern the real power of a wizard, usually people that we don't face at early levels.
Yet, they aren't as powerful or ground breakers as before, when a Charm Person lasted for weeks or months, but certainly they are less fragile. So no, they don't suck. They only aren't the killing machines and heavy artillery they use to be, and some people isn't glad to have to play with a powerful fighter or ranger on his side. But they are far from useless in a fight or an adventure.
Yet, they aren't as powerful or ground breakers as before, when a Charm Person lasted for weeks or months, but certainly they are less fragile. So no, they don't suck. They only aren't the killing machines and heavy artillery they use to be, and some people isn't glad to have to play with a powerful fighter or ranger on his side. But they are far from useless in a fight or an adventure.
How does the imp do this?
Erechel
Explorer
And you have not to follow a strict external code as a paladin or a cleric (although, I think, clerics always were the uber class because of bad masters that doesn't restrain the abuse of moral codes, nor obligue the character to perform religiopus duties, but they also are the perfect combination between martial prowess and magic).
Chocolategravy
First Post
I'm assuming tiny healer's kit. It is INT 11 after all.
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