D&D 5E Fireball kills orc mobs easily

I have found that Fireball and other AoE spells are really strong against mobs of weak creatures!!!11!!

-Max

[Okay, in reality this thread exists to test a hypothesis: truisms will gain little traction in forums because they're so obviously true that there's not much to talk about. Prove me wrong.]
 

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Forum threads are for points of discussion. So what's the purpose in creating a thread where there is no discussion? The only responses you'll get are going to be essentially troll posts, speculative "what if you were fighting creatures immune to AOE?!" and posts like this one.

There isn't anything to talk about. So we're talking about not talking. Which seems to be a waste of everyone's time. So what are you doing if not just wasting our time?
 

I have found that Fireball and other AoE spells are really strong against mobs of weak creatures!!!11!!
I disagree. Or rather, I agree in theory, but it can be much more difficult in practice.

Whenever you see a group of creatures, you probably assume that they're weak. (The DM wouldn't throw a bunch of strong creatures at you, all at once, right?) So you throw a Fireball at them, expecting to kill them all. If they don't die, then you've just revealed yourself as the biggest threat on the field, and now every single one of those enemies will be pointed right at you. This not being a game of battlefield control and tactical maneuvering, you're probably going to die now.

A couple of things make Fireballs much less useful against grouped foes than other editions:
1) Bounded Accuracy means that weak foes can still kill you. If those orcs happen to be Berserker NPCs (CR 2), then they will slaughter your level 10 Wizard.
2) Hit Points scale faster than they used to. An enemy with a slightly higher CR will have a lot more HP. You have no way of knowing, beforehand, whether your Fireball will be a one-turn victory or a waste of an action.

Put together, it means area effect spells are a huge gamble. Sure, it might work, in theory. Your enemies know that, too, though. There's no reason to expect it should work in practice.
 
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I disagree. Or rather, I agree in theory, but it can be much more difficult in practice.

Whenever you see a group of creatures, you probably assume that they're weak. (The DM wouldn't throw a bunch of strong creatures at you, all at once, right?) So you throw a Fireball at them, expecting to kill them all. If they don't die, then you've just revealed itself as the biggest threat on the field, and now every single one of those enemies will be pointed right at you. This not being a game of battlefield control and tactical maneuvering, you're probably going to die now.

A couple of things make Fireballs much less useful against grouped foes than other editions:
1) Bounded Accuracy means that weak foes can still kill you. If those orcs happen to be Berserker NPCs (CR 2), then they will slaughter your level 10 Wizard.
2) Hit Points scale faster than they used to. An enemy with a slightly higher CR will have a lot more HP. You have no way of knowing, beforehand, whether your Fireball will be a one-turn victory or a waste of an action.

Put together, it means area effect spells are a huge gamble. Sure, it might work, in theory. Your enemies know that, too, though. There's no reason to expect it should work in practice.

(Thanks for engaging! Let's see if I can come up with anything interesting to say in response to your interesting post.)

Hmmm. Some thoughts:

1.) Bounded Accuracy applies to AC. Wizards have non-AC-based defenses like Blink, Invisibility, and Expeditious Retreat/Dimension Door.

2.) Berserker NPCs are actually weaker against wizards than orcs are, because orcs move faster and have a missile weapon. A wizard can just turn on Expeditious Retreat and outrun the berserkers; that doesn't work against orcs.

3.) 95% sure you were joking when you said "This not being a game of battlefield control and tactical maneuvering, you're probably going to die now," but just for completeness: manipulating the enemy into believing you're the biggest threat on the field functions as a defense for everyone who isn't you. If you can chuck a fireball and vanish behind total cover, that gives any archers on the field free rounds to shoot at the enemy while they're chasing you. Possibly a lot of free rounds.

4.) You can surround yourself with summoned elementals and/or animated undead prior to casting. Then overcoming your defenders will require a critical mass of enemy troops (because: melee version of the artillery equation means that effectiveness is roughly equal to quantity squared, so 2 orcs will die horribly to your four skeletons without accomplishing anything), and Fireball is ideal for dealing with critical masses of troops.

5.) Hypnotic Pattern is also an AoE, and unlike Fireball it can disable berserkers about as easily as orcs.

6.) If the 12 orcs you see all turn out to be full orcs with the aggression trait and Berserker stats, and keeping the range open isn't an option, your whole party is probably dog meat anyway at close range. Bombarding the enemy with Fireball/Hypnotic Pattern can't possibly make the situation worse than plinking away with single-target spells like Magic Missile. Either way those orcs are going to be chopping away at somebody.

Conclusion: AoE spells are only a gamble if you're putting all your eggs in one basket and hoping to kill the enemy in one blow. However, because AoE spells generally don't take concentration, they are fully-compatible with a combined-arms approach that mitigates the "orcs all turn out to be 67-HP berserkers" scenario unless the enemy has overwhelming force, in which case you must run or die regardless of Fireball/Hypnotic Pattern antics.
 

1.) Bounded Accuracy applies to AC. Wizards have non-AC-based defenses like Blink, Invisibility, and Expeditious Retreat/Dimension Door.

2.) Berserker NPCs are actually weaker against wizards than orcs are, because orcs move faster and have a missile weapon. A wizard can just turn on Expeditious Retreat and outrun the berserkers; that doesn't work against orcs.
Spell slots are a precious resource, even for high-level characters, and you can't cast any spells after your Fireball suddenly fails. You would need to set up your defenses ahead of time, with the expectation that your Fireball won't work, in which case you're out another spell slot if your first plan does happen to work. Too much caution in every encounter would mean that you run out of spells before the day is over, and you might not have the right spell slot left when you need it later on.

And yes, berserker orcs have all of the powers of a berserker on top of the orc racial traits. That's just how 5E works.

3.) 95% sure you were joking when you said "This not being a game of battlefield control and tactical maneuvering, you're probably going to die now," but just for completeness: manipulating the enemy into believing you're the biggest threat on the field functions as a defense for everyone who isn't you. If you can chuck a fireball and vanish behind total cover, that gives any archers on the field free rounds to shoot at the enemy while they're chasing you. Possibly a lot of free rounds.
Then they rush the archers, while spreading out to sufficiently foil any subsequent Fireballs or Lightning Bolts. It's not like the tanks in the party can keep them away, or cause them to split their attacks instead of focusing fire.

6.) If the 12 orcs you see all turn out to be full orcs with the aggression trait and Berserker stats, and keeping the range open isn't an option, your whole party is probably dog meat anyway at close range. Bombarding the enemy with Fireball/Hypnotic Pattern can't possibly make the situation worse than plinking away with single-target spells like Magic Missile. Either way those orcs are going to be chopping away at somebody.
I dunno about that. Twelve orc berserkers against a party of four level-10 characters? It requires a different strategy, sure, but it's far from one-sided. That's why Fireball is a wasted action - because you should have been mezzing or summoning or something other than spreading damage around evenly. Or maybe you could have tried isolating a couple from the group, instead of engaging them all at once with a big explosion that draws attention to yourself.

A group of berserker orcs is a lot like a group of really fast ogres, except they don't look like they're big and tough. They look like a pushover for any moderately-experienced wizard.
 


Then they rush the archers, while spreading out to sufficiently foil any subsequent Fireballs or Lightning Bolts. It's not like the tanks in the party can keep them away, or cause them to split their attacks instead of focusing fire.

If they rush the archers, then what was the downside again to Fireball/Hypnotic Pattern?

I dunno about that. Twelve orc berserkers against a party of four level-10 characters? It requires a different strategy, sure, but it's far from one-sided. That's why Fireball is a wasted action - because you should have been mezzing or summoning or something other than spreading damage around evenly. Or maybe you could have tried isolating a couple from the group, instead of engaging them all at once with a big explosion that draws attention to yourself.

A group of berserker orcs is a lot like a group of really fast ogres, except they don't look like they're big and tough. They look like a pushover for any moderately-experienced wizard.

Oh, it's a level 10 party? I thought we were talking about a bunch of level 5-6 PCs who unexpectedly found out that the 12 orcs they thought they were facing were actually berserkers who are going to crush their faces. If they're Level 10, then there's not much of a threat--AoE spells then just become an efficient way to grind away at them when they clump up. And when they don't clump up, the other PCs will clobber them.

That being said... orc berserkers sounds like a fun and plausible thing to throw into the game. I may just steal that encounter.
 

If they rush the archers, then what was the downside again to Fireball/Hypnotic Pattern?
Now the archers are dead, because lower level enemies can still be scary when they focus fire. The wizard alerted all of the enemies, without hindering or incapacitating any of them.

Oh, it's a level 10 party? I thought we were talking about a bunch of level 5-6 PCs who unexpectedly found out that the 12 orcs they thought they were facing were actually berserkers who are going to crush their faces. If they're Level 10, then there's not much of a threat--AoE spells then just become an efficient way to grind away at them when they clump up. And when they don't clump up, the other PCs will clobber them.
I mentioned that the wizard was level 10, earlier. And sure, the fighter will take out a couple of them per round, but it's still 12 against 2 after the archers are down. Assuming one of those archers was also the healer, it's going to be a very close fight. (It seems unlikely that the fighter will die in this scenario, but it's entirely possible that the rest of the party would go down, which is practically a TPK in many instances.)

This is a medium-hard encounter for this party. Treating it like an easy encounter (by using Fireball) can make it harder than it needs to be.
 

Now the archers are dead, because lower level enemies can still be scary when they focus fire. The wizard alerted all of the enemies, without hindering or incapacitating any of them.

Wait, what? "Alerted" them to the presence of archers? Didn't the archers themselves do that by shooting arrows at the orc berserkers?

This is a medium-hard encounter for this party. Treating it like an easy encounter (by using Fireball) can make it harder than it needs to be.


Out of curiosity, where do you get "medium-hard"? By DMG guidelines it's Deadly (16,200 XP when the Deadly threshold for 4 level 10s is 11,200). By my assessment it's a mediumish encounter, low risk but will use up some resources.

Note that Hypnotic Pattern is also (per thread OP) an excellent spell to use in this situation, and that Fireball may delay casting Hypnotic Pattern for one round (letting the enemy inflict 50-60 HP of damage in the meantime, though of course the party is doing damage in return) but it hardly precludes it. In fact, Fireball isn't making this encounter in any way harder than it would be otherwise. The wasted tempo isn't due to Fireball, it's due to faulty intelligence: not knowing that these guys are berserkers. In fact, if you didn't Fireball six of them initially it would probably take you an extra round or so to figure it out.

"Uh, guys? Those orcs just ate a Fireball and they're still coming. They don't look hurt, they look mad."
 
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Wait, what? "Alerted" them to the presence of archers? Didn't the archers themselves do that by shooting arrows at the orc berserkers?
Eh, this falls down to initiative issues that could vary from table to table. Around here, we would have the wizard go first, because any attack will cause combat to break out, and it's possible that the wizard could lose initiative if the archer starts things and then the enemies break formation.

Out of curiosity, where do you get "medium-hard"? By DMG guidelines it's Deadly (16,200 XP when the Deadly threshold for 4 level 10s is 11,200). By my assessment it's a mediumish encounter, low risk but will use up some resources.
You're right. I think I forgot the multiplier for multiple enemies.
 

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