D&D 5E Limiting cantrips - advice needed

[phmas]

Greetings!

I am curently DMing a Planescape campaign to my 4 players. They have a tiefling Warlock, an elven Wizard, a dwarf Cleric and a human Paladin. We originally started the campaign back in 2014, using the old 2e rules. When 2015 came, we decided to try and convert it to 5e, and it worked wonders and everyone loved the system. We like almost everything so far, with the exception of cantrips. As I said before, we were playing in 2e originally, and the sudden change to 2 of the players spamming Firebolts and EBs was very different from the original "old-school feel" of 2e we like so much. Regardless of how many problems AD&D had, one thing is certain for our group, and that was that magic was not so commonplace, and the new cantrips and the associated Firebolt spammalot does not quite fit to our tastes.

That being said, I am well aware that changing or limiting cantrips will alter the balance of classes. We already know that Warlock is almost required to spam EB, which is actually fine, as long as EB is the only thing he can spam, and the warlock is the only class tha "can" spam spells. That's his niche. Clerics and Druids are also not so dependent on cantrips, on a whole. The wizard/sorcerer/bard, OTOH, are very much dependent on cantrips to maintein their DPR. So our main concerns are with these classes, and how changing things could effect them, and how to compensate for that.

One idea we had was to limit cantrips to maybe 4 per short rest. This way, cantrips are still powerful, but more limited, but can still be used as a backup when you don't have higher level spells to cast.

One other idea is to limit cantrips to around 6-8 per long rest. This one seems more strict, and should probably be followed by maybe a higher number of 1st level spells per day (maybe +1 or 2)

Another idea yet, would be to remove almost all cantrips, leaving only the ones for flavor (like thaumaturgy and prestidigitation). All the other cantrips are either banned or are moved to 1st level, with proper adjustments. This option would of course need some rebalancing of the classes, maybe adding 2 or more 1st level spells per day, as a compensation.

*** BTW, the warlock would maintain his ability to use EB at will, regardless of what happens to his cantrips ***

So, back to you, fellow ENworlders. How would you do it for your game, or how would you balance any of those options listed above?
Thanks in advance!

Cheers!

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

If I were to limit cantrips, I think I'd go with 4 slots per day and be done. Maybe allow casters to spend a hit die after a short rest to recover a cantrip slot? Not sure, there.

 

[77IM]

I like the 4 per short rest idea the best. For some reason 5 per short rest seems more fair to me. I think the ideal you are shooting for is a limit on cantrips that is low enough that people will hit the limit from time to time, but high enough that DPS is maintained most of the time.

Another idea: 4 cantrips per day, and if you spend a 1st-level spell slot you get all 4 cantrip slots back. Maybe give dedicated casters 1 additional 1st-level spell slot?

Rather than converting cantrips to 1st-level spells, you could also just increase their damage slightly. For example, maybe you don't limit the number of cantrips cast, but say something like: damage-dealing cantrips always do minimum damage, except 5/day you can roll for damage plus roll an additional die. So now the wizard who is spamming firebolt is mostly doing 1 point of fire damage... that's like prestidigitation-level damage, but 5/day he can deal 2d10 damage, which is pretty spiffy (although still not as good as a 1st-level spell).

Something to consider is that there are ways for non-casters to get cantrips (the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster classes, or the Magic Initiate feat) so make sure those characters are not too hosed by your rules change. (This is why I like the 5-per-short-rest idea the best, as it seems to affect everyone evenly.)

 

[Coredump]

I think you guys should spend some time playing with it as is..... I think once the initial shock wears off it won't seem as bad.
You can either have the wizard spamming firebolt, or using a light crossbow, not much of a difference.

 

[CapnZapp]

The biggest issue for me is when damage dealing cantrip are used for utility in ways that has nothing to do with power but everything to do with verisimilitude.

The wizard spamming Firebolt?

Allows you to reduce fallen foes to ashes. Burn through walls. See in darkness. Etc

It really irks game world sensibilities.

Even a very generous limit, say 10 castings per cantrip per short rest would probably be enough for the players to drop these usages, while not changing combat one bit.

 

[Smoo]

I've agonized over this one. I really miss the days of highly limited wizards and cantrips that can't do harm. I like that the wizards's primary role used to be as a scholar, investigator and advisor. Sure, they had a handful of combat spells but their best abilities were utility spells. Combat was for the fighters and clerics, non-combat adventuring was time for the rogues and wizards to shine.

Now everybody needs to contribute equally in combat. And thus everybody focuses on optimizing their combat output. And we throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Sorry, just waxing nostalgic. But there's no reason why 5th couldn't be that game again. Make it very difficult to get sneak attack more than once per combat... remove attack cantrips... watch as players mutiny... sigh.

 

[Hriston]

2E didn't have cantrips, but 1E post Unearthed Arcana had cantrips for magic-users and illusionists, as you may already know. It allowed those classes to exchange one first-level spell slot for up to four cantrips per day. Some conversion would be necessary for 5E, but you might want to start there if you want to retain the old-school feel.

 

[Smoo]

2E didn't have cantrips

It had a 1st-level spell called "Cantrip", which basically acted as a prolonged always-on prestidigitation that lasted several hours.

 

[Mistwell]

4 per short rest seems fine. I'd probably allow more, in exchange for levels of exhaustion (which can be a pretty harsh condition that does not go away easily).

 

[Stormonu]

I've been thinking about 3-4 per short rest (especially for NPC's) or 5 per long rest. My players haven't been abusing spells, but if you're wanting a more "old-school" feel, that should give the appropriate feel without making the character feel useless.