D&D 5E What is Elite in 5E?

[The Grassy Gnoll]

Not that I can recall off the top of my head. But it does chime with the notion of a large, well disciplined force of troops, drilled to work together in frighteningly efficient concert. And as we are talking about large-scale battles, that would be the level at which we are talking wouldn't it? Unit A (Hobgoblins) is Elite so long as there are at least two warriors still in formation, giving them Advantage against defending unit B comprised of regular soldiers.
Now, when the Pcs enter the fray they would be fighting against the leaders (perhaps a little light mook mowing on the way), and these guys can be built individually as NPCs to the desired CR you think best based on the PC?
Should you wish to designate Unit C, the Town Militia, as Elite because they have been trained rigorously as a fighting company working in tandem with one another too, give them the same rule - Advantage. When Unit A and Unit C square off against each other, the Advantage cancels each other out.
May be a simple way to deal with this - though I will be the first to admit I have not run any mass combat as yet so the point and I may be like ships in the night...in which case, apologies.

 

[77IM]

In 3rd Edition, an Elite NPC was built using the PC rules for ability scores (non-elites used the 3d6 array instead of 4d6-drop-the-lowest). They also got max hit points from their first hit die, instead of rolling.

In 4th Edition, an Elite monster counted as two monsters for encounter-building purposes. They had (roughly) twice the hit points of a regular monster, and more attacks or some other way to engage multiple party members (like auras or reactions).

In 5th Edition, the closest analog I can find are regular monsters with boosted hit points in some adventures. Both Phandelver and Princes routinely say things like, "6 goblins are led by boss named Splurg (a goblin with 12 hit points)."

 

[Cyan Wisp]

6400 confirmed kills in the GalCop database. Right on, Commander!

 

[Hriston]

Not that I can recall off the top of my head. But it does chime with the notion of a large, well disciplined force of troops, drilled to work together in frighteningly efficient concert. And as we are talking about large-scale battles, that would be the level at which we are talking wouldn't it? Unit A (Hobgoblins) is Elite so long as there are at least two warriors still in formation, giving them Advantage against defending unit B comprised of regular soldiers.
Now, when the Pcs enter the fray they would be fighting against the leaders (perhaps a little light mook mowing on the way), and these guys can be built individually as NPCs to the desired CR you think best based on the PC?
Should you wish to designate Unit C, the Town Militia, as Elite because they have been trained rigorously as a fighting company working in tandem with one another too, give them the same rule - Advantage. When Unit A and Unit C square off against each other, the Advantage cancels each other out.
May be a simple way to deal with this - though I will be the first to admit I have not run any mass combat as yet so the point and I may be like ships in the night...in which case, apologies.

Not at all, although I wasn't thinking of large-scale battles specifically. I realize, of course, that the troop classifications are part of the wargame that bled-over into D&D, and that some may therefore think them irrelevant. My purpose, however, in wanting to establish criteria for determining the troop status of a given monster or NPC is solely to determine the basis for a bonus for morale. I'm using the Morale and Loyalty variants found in the DMG, and I feel that Hobgoblins, Orogs, and others that might have an Elite designation, should be given something like a +3 bonus when checking their loyalty and morale. The Wisdom modifier for many of these creatures is quite low, and doesn't seem to do their high level of discipline and training justice.

So, I'm wanting to come up with a simple set of objective criteria that I can check for when I look at any given monster's stat block to tell if they're elites, or if they're regulars, or if they're peasants (not too many monsters fall into that group, but they could if one were to apply the Commoner NPC template to them). I hope that clears up some of the vagueness of my question. I really just wanted to hear what some other people might have to say about what kind of criteria they would establish, without clouding the conversation up too much with talk of giving this or that bonus to morale, or the merits of using morale in the first place. So, considering that's what it's for, do you think I'm on the right track, or is it really all relative?

 

[Hriston]

Yeah, kind of a vague question with all the ways you could interpret elite. For me, Elite always means maxed out hp plus a bunch of minor tweaks, like raising their main attack stat to 18 if it's not already there, etc.

That's my quick version of making an elite version of a monster. Maybe give him a bump in proficiency bonus. Mostly it boils down to maxing out their HP though. As time goes on, I find myself needing to max out the HP on most of the "boss" monsters in prepublished adventures to provide an adequate challenge.

The other way I interpret it is the guard NPC vs the veteran or knight NPC. If the PCs run into a military unit and I don't have time to build out stats, the normal guys are guards, the elite guys are veterans or knights.

Sorry about the vagueness, just wanted to leave it kind of open ended. I think these are both good definitions of elite. The first is like the big mean orc found in every group of orcs that's big and mean enough to boss the other orcs around. I'm not sure if I would grant that orc elite status. In some situations I would, such as if it were an orog, with the implication that it has superior armor and weapons training, then yes, I would consider that elite.

The second interpretation I agree with entirely because Knight and Veteran NPCs are clearly the equivalent of a Fighter class character. (The Veteran I referred to up-thread is the old-school way of referring to a level-one Fighter.) The Guard NPC I would classify as regular. However, the two groups of NPCs are pretty far apart stat-wise. What I'm trying to establish is where to draw the line.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Not at all, although I wasn't thinking of large-scale battles specifically. I realize, of course, that the troop classifications are part of the wargame that bled-over into D&D, and that some may therefore think them irrelevant. My purpose, however, in wanting to establish criteria for determining the troop status of a given monster or NPC is solely to determine the basis for a bonus for morale. I'm using the Morale and Loyalty variants found in the DMG, and I feel that Hobgoblins, Orogs, and others that might have an Elite designation, should be given something like a +3 bonus when checking their loyalty and morale. The Wisdom modifier for many of these creatures is quite low, and doesn't seem to do their high level of discipline and training justice.

So, I'm wanting to come up with a simple set of objective criteria that I can check for when I look at any given monster's stat block to tell if they're elites, or if they're regulars, or if they're peasants (not too many monsters fall into that group, but they could if one were to apply the Commoner NPC template to them). I hope that clears up some of the vagueness of my question. I really just wanted to hear what some other people might have to say about what kind of criteria they would establish, without clouding the conversation up too much with talk of giving this or that bonus to morale, or the merits of using morale in the first place. So, considering that's what it's for, do you think I'm on the right track, or is it really all relative?

It sounds to me as if you're better off abandoning the wisdom-for-morale system as too simplistic, and either winging it or re-inventing AD&D-style morale rules/statistics.

In any case, your motivation makes perfect sense. I agree that battle-hardened hobgoblins will respond better to casualties than hill giants and ogres. Hill giants are bullies--they're bold only when they feel powerful, but brittle when the target bites back, ergo low morale. Hobgoblins on the other hand think death on battle is glorious and leads to Valhalla.

However, 5E monsters have no Morale stat, and I don't think it can be derived from existing 5E stats. I use my 2E monster manual for such things.

 

[the Jester]

Given the morale-related purpose you state, I'd use a rule of thumb that is something like this- you are elite if any of the following are true:

• You have an attack bonus of +6 or higher;
• You have an AC of 16 or higher;
• You have at least 50 hit points.

Adjust the actual numbers you use to taste.

 

[Hriston]

It sounds to me as if you're better off abandoning the wisdom-for-morale system as too simplistic, and either winging it or re-inventing AD&D-style morale rules/statistics.

In any case, your motivation makes perfect sense. I agree that battle-hardened hobgoblins will respond better to casualties than hill giants and ogres. Hill giants are bullies--they're bold only when they feel powerful, but brittle when the target bites back, ergo low morale. Hobgoblins on the other hand think death on battle is glorious and leads to Valhalla.

However, 5E monsters have no Morale stat, and I don't think it can be derived from existing 5E stats. I use my 2E monster manual for such things.

Personally, I don't mind using a Wisdom save. I think it's the best stat for measuring resolve, but I would like to add a modifier, or set of modifiers, as per AD&D 1E, and so I am pretty much in the process of doing what you suggest and reinventing, or converting that edition's morale rules. I'm still going to use the Wisdom save, however, so it's a bit of a hybrid.

One of the modifiers for morale in 1E, which some may have overlooked because it's packed in with the loyalty mods, is troop status. Comparing this with the many references to the higher morale of hobgoblins and certain other humanoids throughout multiple editions has led me to try to develop a set of features by which elite, regular, and "untrained" status could be differentiated across race. You see similar status levels used in the 2E morale scores, although I prefer the B/X morale scores myself. I've compared those scores as well, and feel that a more granular approach can give similar results and would be applicable to any creature, at least to all humanoids, if not giants. I'm not sure if it would be necessary to identify elite status in, say, a Balor, although the stat block may well warrant it.

 

[aramis erak]

For my own use, Elite is a +2 to an attribute, and between +1 and +4 HP per HD (not to exceed maximum possible roll), possibly an extra 1-2 HD.